Inherited Trauma and Leadership: How Family Patterns Shape Health, Wealth, and Performance
High-performing leaders often assume their health habits, money decisions, and leadership style are the product of their discipline, intelligence, and hard-earned experience.
However, that assumption is incomplete.
In a recent conversation with Ruschelle Khanna, a therapist and family-wealth advisor, one theme surfaced repeatedly: many of the patterns shaping executive performance today didn’t originate in adulthood or even in childhood. Instead, they were inherited.
Not inherited in the traditional sense of assets or genetics alone, but through emotional conditioning, nervous system imprinting, and family systems that quietly influence how leaders relate to money, safety, achievement, and rest.
For executives serious about sustainable performance, longevity, and legacy, this distinction matters.
Because what goes unexamined gets repeated.
Watch Conversation with Ruschelle Khanna
1. Inherited Trauma Is Not About Catastrophe
When people hear the word trauma, they often think of extreme events: abuse, war, or catastrophe. That narrow framing causes many high achievers to opt out of the conversation entirely.
Inherited trauma is different.
Inherited trauma refers to unresolved emotional patterns passed down through family systems, often without conscious awareness. These patterns can include scarcity, hypervigilance, conditional love, or survival-driven ambition. They’re stored not just as stories, but as physiological responses—how the body reacts to pressure, uncertainty, or success itself.
If a pattern feels irrational but persistent, it may not be personal failure. It may be an inheritance.
2. Why Achievement Often Becomes a Stand-In for Safety
A common theme among founders, CEOs, and senior leaders is the equation of achievement with worth.
Produce results, and you earn approval. Stay productive and remain safe. Slow down and mitigate risk loss.
In many families, particularly those that prized success or endured instability, achievement became the currency of love and security. Over time, this creates leaders who are externally successful but internally dysregulated, operating with relentless drive and limited recovery capacity.
3. The Hidden Link Between Money, Shame, and the Body
Money is rarely just financial.
It also represents security, autonomy, and survival. And for many leaders, it carries a surprising emotional charge: guilt, anxiety, or avoidance—regardless of net worth.
In practice, this shows up as:
Inability to enjoy financial success
Chronic overwork despite abundance
Hoarding time, energy, or capital
Emotional discomfort discussing money—even with advisors
Money scripts are learned early and reinforced quietly. Without examination, they become invisible constraints on your decision-making.
4. When High Performance Starts to Stall
Many executives reach a point where the strategies that once drove their success stop working.
More pressure doesn’t yield more clarity. More force doesn’t produce better decisions. Burnout emerges not from laziness, but from over-identification with a survival-based drive.
This is often where leaders misdiagnose the issue as:
A productivity problem
A discipline lapse
A lack of motivation
In reality, the system has hit its ceiling. Sustainable performance requires shifting your source of drive, from fear to self-regulation, from force to capacity.
5. Separating Self-Worth from Net Worth (Without Losing Ambition)
A common fear among high performers is that compassion will dull their edge. However, it’s anything but that.
When leaders disentangle their self-worth from their output, they often unlock:
Better judgment under pressure
More creative problem-solving
Improved health biomarkers
Stronger relationships and teams
A drive rooted in self-respect is more durable than one rooted in self-criticism. One expands capacity while the other eventually depletes it.
6. Intergenerational Well-Being vs. Intergenerational Wealth
Many leaders say they’re building for their families. Fewer pause to ask what, exactly, they’re passing on. Beyond assets, families transmit:
Stress responses
Communication norms
Beliefs about scarcity and safety
Attitudes toward rest, enjoyment, and health
True legacy isn’t just financial continuity. It’s emotional and psychological continuity, teaching the next generation how to operate from stability rather than survival.
7. The Strategic Role of Family Culture and Values
Organizations invest heavily in culture. Families rarely do.
Yet families are the first leadership environments we ever experience.
Establishing clear values: how decisions are made, how conflict is handled, how resources are respected, creates alignment across generations. It also reduces friction, resentment, and burnout later in life.
This is your best preventive strategy.
8. What Changes When Leaders Do This Work
When leaders recognize inherited patterns rather than unconsciously reenacting them, several shifts occur:
Leadership becomes calmer, not weaker
Boundaries strengthen without guilt
Health behaviors stabilize
Decision-making improves under stress
Most importantly, leaders begin operating as themselves rather than coping strategies shaped decades earlier. That’s what authentic leadership actually means.
A Final Reflection for Leaders
Health, wealth, and leadership are not separate domains. They are expressions of the same internal operating system.
If that system is built on unresolved inheritance—scarcity, conditional worth, chronic vigilance—no amount of optimization will fully stick. But when leaders take responsibility not just for outcomes, but for their patterns, performance becomes sustainable, and legacy becomes intentional.
The question worth sitting with is simple, but not easy: Is current success being driven by choice or by inheritance?
Work With Executive Health
If this perspective resonates, and you’re interested in building health and performance that support your long-term leadership—not just short-term output—you’re invited to connect. Executive Health works with leaders who treat their biology, behavior, and decision-making capacity as strategic assets. Schedule a complimentary meeting here.
Connect with Ruschelle Khanna
Website: https://www.lifestyleforlegacy.com/
Ancestral Healing Center: https://www.ancestralhealingcenter.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ruschelle-khanna-lifestyle-for-legacy/
Frequently Asked Questions
What is inherited trauma?
Inherited trauma refers to emotional, psychological, and physiological patterns passed down through family systems across generations. These patterns influence how individuals respond to stress, safety, success, and relationships, even when no obvious traumatic event occurred in their own lives.
How does inherited trauma affect health?
Inherited trauma can dysregulate your nervous system, increasing chronic stress, inflammation, burnout risk, and difficulty with recovery. Over time, this can affect your sleep, metabolism, cardiovascular health, and overall resilience—especially in high-performing leaders.
Can inherited trauma influence financial decisions?
Yes. Many money behaviors—such as hoarding, overworking, risk avoidance, or chronic anxiety around finances—are rooted in inherited beliefs about security, scarcity, and self-worth rather than current financial reality.
Why are high achievers especially affected?
High achievers often learned early that their performance equaled safety or approval. This can create relentless drive, difficulty resting, and an overattachment to identity and achievement. These are patterns that fuel your success initially but undermine your long-term health and leadership capacity.
Is inherited trauma the same as childhood trauma?
Not exactly. Childhood experiences matter, but inherited trauma includes patterns that existed before childhood, such as emotional responses and coping strategies passed down biologically and behaviorally through generations.
How can leaders begin addressing inherited trauma?
Awareness is the first step, but integration requires self-regulation, compassionate self-leadership, improved communication, and intentional recovery practices. For many leaders, addressing inherited trauma unlocks better decision-making, stronger health outcomes, and more sustainable performance.
Does healing inherited trauma reduce ambition?
No. Leaders who shift from fear-driven ambition to self-regulated drive often experience greater clarity, creativity, and stamina. Performance becomes more sustainable, not less.
Ruschelle Khanna Conversation Transcript (May Not Be Exact)
Julian Hayes II
(0:02) All right, we are live,Ruschelle Khanna. (0:04) Thank you so much for joining me. (0:06) We had a great conversation off the recording here.
(0:09) We'll save that for maybe a part two on a different podcast. (0:12) But for now, though, you know, there's a lot of things that I thought about where we should start at. (0:19) But you grew up in the best decade, which is the 90s, in my opinion.
(0:23) I think culture and everything was awesome in the 90s. (0:26) I got to enjoy it a little bit. (0:28) I was still kind of a little boy.
(0:29) But what do you miss about the 90s the most? (0:32) What's your favorite thing?
Ruschelle Khanna
(0:34) Oh, wow. (0:36) This is this is tough. (0:39) You know, it's been interesting.
(0:41) Ironically, it's been popping up on my YouTube feed, the shorts of the 90s, like clips of high school in the 90s, like they'll show like the last year of of high school, 1997 or whatever. (0:56) And the thing that I miss the most and I am most sad about and that I want to try to cultivate for my son, who is almost a year, is just the freedom that we the freedom to just be in our bodies and not be preoccupied with something and the freedom to enjoy each other. (1:22) Every so one of my favorite memories growing up was I grew up in rural West Virginia.
(1:29) And the highlight of the year was to go to 4-H camp, which was a camp that had log cabins down by the river. (1:37) And we there would be a party on Thursday night. (1:41) And then there's a bonfire every night.
(1:43) And we would set candles off into the river at the end of the week. (1:49) And I had the opportunity a year ago to be a counselor at that camp for my niece. (1:56) And those kids were allowed to bring their phones.
(2:01) Nobody was on their phone all week. (2:03) They had access to their phones. (2:05) And I watched those kids be fully present for a solid week without selfies, without anything.
(2:12) And I think we need more of that again.
Julian Hayes II
(2:16) Yeah. (2:17) You know, I was a little boy, but I just feel like there was a sense of people weren't as so afraid to just let their kids just roam and go play and everything. (2:29) I don't know, maybe I was naive, but the world didn't seem as dangerous just in everyday life for people as it seems now.
(2:35) I feel families seem a little more guarded about letting their kids go play and let them out of their sights and stuff like that. (2:41) I don't know yet. (2:42) I'm not a parent yet, but it's just an observation I see.
Ruschelle Khanna
(2:46) So are you familiar with the book, The Anxious Generation?
Julian Hayes II
(2:49) Yes.
Ruschelle Khanna
(2:51) Okay. (2:51) So that man also started an organization called Let Grow. (2:56) Are you familiar with Let Grow?
(2:58) So Let Grow actually teaches parents to let their kids have autonomy. (3:05) This is the state that we're in right now, is that parents need to relearn that kids are okay to roam around a bit. (3:13) And on their website, there is a whole page just dedicated to crime stats in the US.
(3:23) And the United States is actually as safe as it was in 1967, meaning that it was more dangerous in the 90s when we were growing up than what it is today for a child. (3:37) And you won't even let your kid walk into the Dairy Queen by themselves to pick up a hot dog. (3:42) So I mean, we need to...
(3:46) It's complete media brainwashing, this fact that we live in a very dangerous world. (3:51) We actually live in a very safe world. (3:53) And I was excited to see that statistic.
Julian Hayes II
(3:58) That's a stat I never would have guessed. (4:02) I mean, I don't pay attention or at least I don't really go by a lot of times what I see in the media because I understand how media works. (4:09) But even just to hear that stat, that is very uplifting because I think it depends on...
(4:15) To me, it seems like this is the best time to be alive in every single category of life. (4:19) But then there's another subset of people who think that maybe things are worse now than what they used to be. (4:26) And so I think that's very interesting.
(4:29) And it goes into perspective, which growing up in rural West Virginia, I had a former client who's a good friend now. (4:37) She's from West Virginia as well. (4:39) And so I'm curious to hear your opinion.
(4:41) What's probably the biggest misnomer about West Virginia?
Ruschelle Khanna
(4:46) That it is predominantly racist.
Julian Hayes II
(4:51) Interesting.
Ruschelle Khanna
(4:52) Now, so I think what the theme that I'm picking up on and what we're talking about is that there's this dichotomy here about everything. (5:03) I sing this song to my newborn, but he's 11 months. (5:10) He's 11 months.
(5:11) And I'll sing this song when he's crying at night and I'll say, it was the best of times, the worst of times. (5:18) And then I'll go on to sing something else because he's crying, but we're together. (5:23) And I think this is the best of times and worst of times.
(5:26) I think there is truth that we live in a really, really exciting time to be alive. (5:32) We have incredible opportunities to do things that we couldn't do in the 90s. (5:36) And at the same time, all of these very valuable things have been taken away from us, like our interface with reality, for example.
(5:45) It's pretty big and pretty important. (5:48) And I think that West Virginia's racist is also that dichotomy. (5:55) I'm married to an Indian man.
(5:57) And is there racism here? (6:00) Sure, there is. (6:02) But also if you speak to the general population here, black or white, and we all live together, or Asian or whatever, on a daily basis, nobody's up in each other's face.
(6:16) Everybody likes each other. (6:18) Nobody's blatantly racist at the Walmart. (6:21) We're all just together.
(6:24) But yes, it's here and no, it's not at the same time.
Julian Hayes II
(6:30) Yeah.
Ruschelle Khanna
(6:31) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(6:32) I believe also when I was researching you that coal mining was a big part of your family, right? (6:39) Yeah. (6:40) And so that's what she said.
(6:42) She's like, one of the things is like, she just thinks everybody in West Virginia is a coal miner. (6:47) And so she's like, and also, she said a few other things, but I'll leave that off of her here. (6:56) So that's the other show.
(7:00) But so yeah, I'm curious. (7:02) If I came to you as a little kid, if we saw you as a little kid, to who you are now, would we have guessed that you're doing the type of work that you're doing right now?
Ruschelle Khanna
(7:12) No, probably not. (7:15) No. (7:16) Well, I think there's elements of it.
(7:19) If you saw me as a little kid, you probably would have thought I would be doing something maybe even more in the spotlight. (7:27) I was a pretty big personality and I like to be in the center of attention and I like to perform. (7:36) I loved all things performing.
(7:40) So you probably would have said I was going to be doing something a little bit more in the spotlight rather than my day job is I'm kind of behind the scenes with families, even though I love things like this podcast.
Julian Hayes II
(7:56) Yeah. (7:56) Okay. (7:57) So when somebody says inherent trauma, I'll tell you for me, when I hear the word trauma at first, and I'm better now, but when I first heard it, I thought, well, I didn't go through, like nobody abused me, beat me up or none of that.
(8:11) Like, life's pretty good for me from start to how it is now. (8:16) But then I got to reading your book a little bit and there's different types of trauma. (8:20) And so I'm curious for you, what does inherited trauma mean to you?
Ruschelle Khanna
(8:27) So the book kind of goes through ways to spot inherited trauma. (8:33) And the definition of inherited trauma is just the things that have been passed on to us that as Mark Wallen, who wrote the book, It Didn't Start With You, that's what he would say, right? (8:47) It didn't start with you.
(8:48) So we were kind of brought into these bodies and our bodies have information already in them. (8:54) So we kind of jumped into a meat suit that was already preloaded with things. (9:01) And some of those are pain points from our ancestors, and some of them are good, you know, amazing traits from our ancestors, and they are stored in all parts of our body.
(9:16) And then we, if things happen to us in our life that are stressful, sometimes those things get expressed out. (9:26) And we unconsciously, we don't know where they came from or why we are acting certain ways. (9:32) So it's what is in the fabric of our physical being is inherited trauma.
Julian Hayes II
(9:38) Now, is this hard to convince people sometimes that this exists? (9:43) Or I guess, or maybe I should reframe it. (9:47) When somebody is coming to you, do they already know about this?
(9:51) Or they're having a problem, but they don't know why it's an issue?
Ruschelle Khanna
(9:55) Okay, so the ways that we know, I don't want to label everything as inherited trauma, because everything is not. (10:03) But if you've been in therapy for 20 years, and you're like, I just can't, I'm like mulling around on the same thing. (10:11) I don't, why does this not get better?
(10:14) Well, it probably didn't start with you. (10:16) So you might be looking in the, are you continuing to assess yourself for a problem that didn't start with you, that would be inherited trauma. (10:25) The other is, I know that great grandma had a drinking problem, and I also have a drinking problem.
(10:31) And there's a connection there. (10:33) So there's a direct connection. (10:36) And the other one that I talk about in the book, and the reason why I started down this path, is that the age of onset of an issue is similar to something that happened to an ancestor.
(10:51) So in my case, I had at the age of four, I had severe death anxiety onset. (11:00) And four year olds typically don't know about death. (11:04) They don't even understand the concept of death.
(11:08) But my mother, my grandfather died when my mom was age four. (11:14) So I picked up her genetic pain point at age four. (11:20) So that was a direct link.
(11:22) I know that that was an inherited trauma that completely shaped my life. (11:26) And I had no control over that.
Julian Hayes II
(11:30) How does that shape your life?
Ruschelle Khanna
(11:33) Well, I had a preoccupation with death from a very young age. (11:37) And then that caused me to do certain things. (11:41) One, it caused me to be very introspective.
(11:44) I started meditating when I was 12. (11:46) I grew up in a Methodist and religious household. (11:50) I was very interested in religion and the afterlife, and understanding how death played a role in my life.
(12:00) And then all I wanted to do was work in hospice when I graduated. (12:06) I mean, it completely shaped my thinking about my career. (12:12) I didn't feel like I had an obsession.
(12:14) It felt like I had some sort of a calling to do that from a very young age. (12:21) But these are not the normal aspirations of little kids.
Julian Hayes II
(12:28) No. (12:29) Yeah. (12:30) So it sounds like there's like this little program running in the background that we're not even consciously aware of is what that sounds like.
(12:39) And so maybe this is similar, but this is just kind of what I'm thinking now. (12:45) You know, I think about a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of go-getters, high achievers. (12:49) And perhaps a lot of them come from families where most of the time to earn love, to earn safety, they had to achieve something.
(13:00) And I kind of see this play out in adulthood. (13:02) And I'm kind of talking about myself a little bit for a long time. (13:05) I did therapy a little bit.
(13:07) I had to leave the first one because it was kind of like you were talking about where you're just running in circles. (13:13) But I tended to find this thing of where achievement equated to love. (13:18) And if you didn't achieve, you didn't get love.
(13:20) So is that a similar thing here, kind of what you were talking about, where you got these patterns in the background running?
Ruschelle Khanna
(13:27) Well, if we explored that a little bit and where that pattern came from, that certainly could be one type of an inherited pattern that you picked up. (13:40) It doesn't have... (13:42) So the other layer on inherited trauma is how we are reared as children.
(13:49) So your parents have picked up parenting styles as well from their parents and their parents so that there's the layer of how we're parented. (14:02) And this conditional love is a big problem in families of wealth. (14:08) It's a problem in families of all socioeconomic status.
(14:12) But I think wealth, because achievement is often a value in wealthy homes, then there is the perform or you don't get love thing going on that could be running in the background. (14:28) And it could also have nothing to do necessarily with parenting and also something that we pick up if there's an inherent issue of self-esteem that has been inherited. (14:42) Like if mom or dad or grandma or grandpa had severe lack of ability to love and care for themselves, because what you're talking about is this two-circle thing.
(14:54) We've got inherent worth. (14:57) I am lovable because I exist. (14:59) And then we've got earned worth.
(15:01) I achieved something great and that's how I show my value in the world. (15:06) They're both important, but one does not replace the other.
Julian Hayes II
(15:13) And do you think though that a lot of the probably the higher achieving people, people that are very ambitious, you think this is one of their big struggles?
Ruschelle Khanna
(15:26) That Venn diagram that I just drew for you is something that I have to, I have it laminated. (15:33) I mean, I use it so much that I'm like, this is the problem. (15:38) So yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(15:39) I know there's not one answer for that, but I guess what is a common path that someone can take to start kind of having a healthier relationship with that?
Ruschelle Khanna
(15:54) There is a book written by Kristen Neff called the Mindfulness and Compassion Workbook. (16:00) So it doesn't matter how wonderful your business does or how great your family thinks you are, if you are not practiced and skilled at being mindfully compassionate with yourself, you're always going to feel off. (16:20) So we must always practice compassion for ourselves.
(16:25) And it's a bank account that the compassion we have for ourselves is also an account that gets filled or depleted.
Julian Hayes II
(16:36) Okay. (16:37) So I'm going to shift to money a little bit. (16:38) And I assume that that's probably one of the hardest topics that people talk about.
(16:42) And it's probably one of the last things people talk about. (16:45) I'm sure people can probably share a bunch of things with you, but when it comes to money, a lot of times I feel like there's a little bit of a shame. (16:52) Is that assumption correct?
Ruschelle Khanna
(16:56) Have you heard me on other podcasts before? (16:59) Is that where you're getting this?
Julian Hayes II
(17:01) No, I actually don't listen to a lot of podcasts. (17:06) So I don't listen to a lot of podcasts. (17:08) I skim to see some of the things you talk about, but then it's more like what piques my curiosity?
(17:15) What do I want to talk about? (17:15) So I'm a very selfish interviewer.
Ruschelle Khanna
(17:18) Okay. (17:18) Well, the reason why I asked that is because I specifically talk about those two things. (17:23) And the issue of shame and money is shame and money are very, very closely related.
(17:35) And I'm going to go through why they are. (17:39) They are closely related on a physical level. (17:43) So if we think about where money sits in our anatomy from an Eastern perspective, it sits at the base of the spine at our genitals, like below our genitals, because it's our sense of security.
(17:57) That's what money does. (17:59) And so when we think about our hips and our pelvis, that's what's holding our whole body up. (18:04) If we don't have money, we don't have the foundation of security in the world today.
(18:09) And at the very center and base of our body, there is a nerve that sits between your genitals. (18:18) And that nerve is called the pudendal nerve. (18:21) And pudendal in Latin means the place to be ashamed of.
(18:28) So literally in our language, from the time we are brought into our body, our language is telling us that we should be ashamed of having security. (18:42) And that security, that's related to our pleasure, to our sex life, to our identity as a person and to our money. (18:54) So that is, I can't get any deeper than that.
Julian Hayes II
(19:03) That's interesting. (19:05) So we come into the world with that already there.
Ruschelle Khanna
(19:07) Yes. (19:09) And on that, when you say, can people talk to you about money? (19:14) People are more open to talk about sexual abuse than money.
(19:18) And that's what I have said on other podcasts is people will come in and tell the most horrendous things that have happened to them. (19:26) But then when they talk about money, they don't even know what to say. (19:29) They're like at a complete loss.
Julian Hayes II
(19:32) Wow. (19:34) So do you also think society doesn't help this as well, though, with the conditioning, right?
Ruschelle Khanna
(19:43) With being able to talk about money.
Julian Hayes II
(19:47) Yeah. (19:47) And just kind of, I guess, how money is portrayed in just everyday culture.
Ruschelle Khanna
(19:54) You know, I've never been asked that question before, and I'm not keenly aware of where we are brainwashing people to not talk about money, really. (20:07) And maybe it's just the things that I'm looking at. (20:10) You know, I'm around so many people who really want to have better conversations about money.
(20:18) I mean, being poor is not something that people want to just kind of put out into the world, right? (20:25) Like we all want to show that we're abundant to the world around us. (20:31) But I don't know how much poverty shaming is going on.
(20:37) What are your thoughts about that?
Julian Hayes II
(20:39) Yeah. (20:40) Well, I think there's a poverty shame. (20:44) I also think there's a rich shame.
(20:46) I think there's images portrayed of both sides of the coin, kind of where we talked about at the very beginning. (20:52) You know, I think for me at first, I had this certain image of people who are really rich business owners, you know, and sometimes they have to lay off people or whatnot. (21:03) And I just had like, those people are evil, or those people don't care about people, and things like that.
(21:08) But then on the other end, you had this thing of poverty and what that portrayed. (21:14) And so I think both sides of the coin, I do think there's a certain type of message that is portrayed to us. (21:23) And I guess the reason also what I'm thinking is, I think different families growing up have different messages about money and things.
(21:33) I didn't come up with this, and I forgot who said this, but I think I heard someone say that it's easier to come up from, if you didn't have anything growing up, there's an inherent hunger that you have, that you really want to strive for something because you experienced a lot of pain. (21:49) And then on the opposite end, if you're at the top, there's this culture and this expectation, this standard has been set. (21:57) Whereas in the middle, I think it's harder to escape the middle, if that makes sense, because things are not so bad that you have this deep, intense pain, but you have just enough to keep you content.
Ruschelle Khanna
(22:12) I can see that. (22:15) I tend to try not to compare pains, I guess, because I can see the pain in all three of those. (22:22) And I worked with all three of those, and they're all suffering.
(22:28) So is one worse than another? (22:32) If I had to say what was the most difficult, I would say the ultra wealthy have it the most difficult in terms of mentally getting themselves out of... (22:46) They're struggling with how to stay happy and keep that dopamine rush going.
(22:53) If you have 30 cars in the driveway, and what's going to make me happy now? (22:58) Damn. (22:59) They've got that to overcome.
(23:02) And then they've got the identity crisis that's happening because dad and mom were amazing humans, and now I have to keep up with it. (23:11) I think the mental prison of someone who's grown up in ultra wealth, parents of super wealthy kids have a really hard job. (23:21) They really do.
Julian Hayes II
(23:25) Does this also go into... (23:26) Maybe I'm skipping around, but I remember something. (23:30) I saw something, five liabilities of family teams.
(23:34) Does that play into this scenario here?
Ruschelle Khanna
(23:37) So those are the way that I broke down the different ways trauma is expressed out in your family system. (23:48) So we've got cycles of chaos. (23:50) I was just on a call with someone who's a people pleaser, can come out as procrastination.
(23:59) So when we think about the liabilities of trauma... (24:03) Okay. (24:04) So family businesses bring me in to work with them.
(24:08) And sometimes there are people who are not on board with... (24:11) They're like, why are we doing this? (24:12) This is soft stuff and it doesn't really matter.
(24:15) And who really cares about feelings? (24:18) How's this going to impact the bottom line? (24:20) Well, the liabilities are, as we know, there's a ton of research that those liabilities are what breaks people's businesses apart.
(24:32) Those are the primary reasons why businesses don't succeed. (24:36) It's not, you didn't have this plan or that plan. (24:41) It was because you couldn't get along.
Julian Hayes II
(24:46) Yeah. (24:46) And so I guess that's why we hear that most of generations don't last. (24:52) What is it?
(24:53) Three generations? (24:54) Is that?
Ruschelle Khanna
(24:54) Okay. (24:55) Well, Jim Grubman, do you know that that statistic is wrong? (25:00) Is it?
(25:00) Okay. (25:01) It is. (25:01) Jim Grubman, if he were here, I don't know if you know Jim, but Jim is big in the family business world.
(25:07) He's like just an icon when it comes to governance and succession. (25:13) And he would school you on that, right? (25:15) That statistic is actually not valid.
(25:18) And they don't have- How did it get so popular? (25:22) It was a misreading of a research paper. (25:26) And also it has the idea of that shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves.
(25:33) Every culture has their own version of, if you don't maintain your family system, it will be gone in three generations. (25:42) So it has been a longstanding myth that's been said over and over again. (25:47) There's different, I don't even remember all the different ways that cultures have said that phrase.
(25:54) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(25:54) So that's the power of stories right there. (25:57) Yes. (25:59) Yes.
Ruschelle Khanna
(26:00) But however, there is a need, a huge need for succession planning and for the maintenance of good relationships between multi-generations and families. (26:14) Otherwise, they won't last, but don't quote that statistic because Jim will come after you.
Julian Hayes II
(26:20) Oh, I'm not going to quote it. (26:21) This is not my wheelhouse. (26:23) Yeah.
(26:24) This is not my wheelhouse. (26:25) You won't hear me say anything about this. (26:30) I just ask questions and have things debunked.
(26:33) So that's what I love to have. (26:36) So I think that's another example of just how something can just spread, no matter if it's true or not, or how something can get misinterpreted and it can spread as well. (26:48) So it's just, it's a great example.
(26:51) So, and I can't wait to somebody says this and now I can say, no, there's a guy named Jim and he will get onto you. (27:00) So I want to personally thank Jim for that. (27:08) So I believe there's different scripts, right?
(27:10) Talking about stories and everything and money scripts and belief patterns that we can see repeated across generations that we can kind of go on to that. (27:20) Is that something that that has to be consciously brought up as well? (27:25) I assume this is running in the background where sometimes you can have someone that is ultra wealthy, but they, their mindset still somehow hasn't caught up to what's materially out there.
Ruschelle Khanna
(27:38) Yes, absolutely. (27:40) So that one of the, the book talks about these, I have kind of broken these thought patterns into money scripts and there's a quiz in the book that you can kind of take to see what your, well, Brad Klontz is the one who started money scripts. (27:57) So Brad has his own quiz and then I kind of built upon it and, and looked a little bit deeper at what it actually sounds like if we are lacking in personal security.
(28:10) So that's one. (28:12) The other one is how much emotional currency we have. (28:16) Like, am I emotionally healthy and fluent with money or without money?
(28:22) But, you know, money's just another place where, where these issues can, can arise. (28:28) So if I'm feeling insecure, maybe I won't apply for that job, right? (28:33) If I'm feeling emotionally unstable, maybe I make, maybe I, my gambling and I can't hold onto my money.
(28:44) Understanding options is another one. (28:47) So that's being able to critically think through like, what are all my resources? (28:52) How am I interacting in the world?
(28:54) And am I doing that well so that I can leverage all of my resources? (28:59) Social capital is another one that is being talked about more and more. (29:05) Your network is your net worth, right?
(29:08) Like it's very important to people and relationships we know, and that's where people of wealth have a real benefit over someone who is, is in middle class or in poverty. (29:19) But that doesn't mean they're always using it well. (29:21) I mean, I work with a lot of inheritors of wealth and they have no idea the power that surrounds them and how that, how they can tap into that.
(29:32) So there's always room to grow there. (29:34) It doesn't matter how much money you have.
Julian Hayes II
(29:37) Yeah. (29:38) You know, just for some reason, this came up in my head. (29:40) What's the process of, I mean, this is a loaded question.
(29:43) It's not, not like it can all be answered, but like, what's the process like of disentangling somebody's self-worth from their net worth without losing their drive?
Ruschelle Khanna
(29:54) Oh, well, the cool thing about it is, is that you get more of a drive after you do that. (30:01) So many, I've had so many, when I was living in New York, you know, my office was on wall street. (30:08) And when I first opened my office, I was working with a lot of traders and just people who are super high achieving, super intelligent.
(30:18) And that, but they've, they've peaked and they're like, why can I not go any further? (30:24) And the one answer that I kept seeing over and over and over again is that you're using force and an abusive mindset and a, you know, kick yourself up the hill situation to try to achieve even more. (30:40) And it stopped working.
(30:42) So once we can let go of the abusive drive that a lot of times comes from inherited trauma, and I'll, I'll give an example of that in a minute. (30:52) Once we can start driving our, our progress from compassion, then it just, it just goes exponentially. (31:03) The kind of classic example is, if like, let's say you had a Holocaust, your grandparents were Holocaust survivors, and your parents are now in the U.S. and you're raised by these, you know, one generation away from the Holocaust, and you have a complaint about something, I don't like this in the house. (31:30) Well, suck it up, buttercup, deal. (31:34) You didn't, you didn't come out of a, you know, refugee camp somewhere, or you didn't, you should be grateful for what you have because you didn't die in a gas chamber. (31:46) You know, these are the messages that were passed down.
(31:49) And then it's like this, I get this internal dialogue of abuse now. (31:55) Suck it up. (31:56) You've got to deal with it.
(31:57) Just suck it up and keep working, keep working. (32:01) Well, in our generation now, we don't have to just suck it up and keep working. (32:07) We actually have the luxury, most of us, to process things and to be a little bit more gentle, whereas our, our ancestors couldn't.
(32:16) They were operating out of survival, and that was reasonable for the time that they would say that to you. (32:25) Maybe not fully, but from where they were coming from, it was how they had gotten through, right? (32:31) So we have an opportunity to be really caring to ourselves, and that gives us more energy to be more creative and have better relationships.
Julian Hayes II
(32:46) Yeah, I think you answered probably the next question that I had when I was thinking about a lot of times different founders, different entrepreneurs say, you know, I'm doing this to build up, I'm doing this for the family, but they're passing on the very stress and scarcity patterns that they wanted to escape from. (33:03) And so I think I was going to ask how can leaders consciously build that intergenerational, we can call it well-being, instead of just financial wealth? (33:12) And I think you answered some of that already.
Ruschelle Khanna
(33:16) And I, in the book, at the end of the book, I also go through kind of the three directions. (33:20) If you want to know how to build through compassion, then the first thing that we start with is I need to learn how to be an effective communicator to my family, and I need to really hone and refine that and get critiqued on that and make sure I'm doing a good job. (33:39) The second one is I need to learn how to have compassionate decision making.
(33:43) So I need to take people around me into consideration, and I need to be very thoughtful about the decisions I make for our family and our money. (33:53) The third one is I need to learn how to really honor our resources. (33:58) So we're not being wasteful.
(34:01) That can start at very young, at childhood. (34:04) We don't mistreat our things. (34:07) We are respectful of our food and our environment.
(34:10) And then the last one is openness to receive things, and that's often the last. (34:16) It's like with those founders, right? (34:18) They've worked for 10, 15 years, and they've squirreled away a bunch of money, and then they're heading into retirement, and they still feel scarcity when really they can just do what they want to do and enjoy.
(34:34) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(34:34) Yeah. (34:35) And I think it's just the proverbial scars that you accumulate throughout the years, where a lot of years, you call it the ramen noodle days, where you just have to just scrape by and just do so many different things just to keep things afloat. (34:50) And so I think that probably leaves a permanent imprint on you that it's just you're always scared of going back.
(35:01) I think it's kind of what I've gathered from different entrepreneurs and stuff who are decades older than me in terms of just they never forget that pain of just at the very beginning when they just have to do everything they can just to keep it afloat.
Ruschelle Khanna
(35:19) And they're afraid to forget about it because they're afraid that they would go back there again. (35:24) And so the trauma in that, and again, not everything is trauma, but once you've gotten to safety, then you no longer have to operate from fear. (35:38) And that's the kind of the, it's like, when am I at safety?
(35:42) And our body will tend to tell us you're never at safety. (35:46) That's what our body is going to say.
Julian Hayes II
(35:49) So is this almost also getting addicted to an identity? (35:52) We become so addicted to that identity that we don't, that's just who we are, even though that's not who we have to be.
Ruschelle Khanna
(36:00) Absolutely. (36:01) And again, you know, I think a lot of, I talked to financial advisor friends and things like that. (36:08) And they're like, you know, this dude's got all this money and they don't want to spend it on anything.
(36:12) And they're afraid to spend it on this and afraid to spend it on that. (36:16) And I think the distinction is, are you doing things out of fear or do you just not need anything and you're good? (36:26) Like, okay, if you're really good and you're comfortable and you're satisfied, like you don't have to go out and buy a new thing or go take a trip.
(36:35) But is that, what's the discernment here? (36:38) Are you actually that way or are you afraid to do something?
Julian Hayes II
(36:44) Yeah. (36:44) That's a big one. (36:46) And you know, as you're talking here, I hear you're establishing, it's like establishing a family culture.
(36:51) We always think about business culture, but a family culture. (36:54) And one of the first things with that is a family mission statement. (36:57) So as I was doing some reading and researching, I saw you actually one time posted, you had, you shared your family mission statement.
(37:04) And so I'm curious, when you're doing that, is this something that you and your husband both sit down together and think about? (37:11) How do you go about that?
Ruschelle Khanna
(37:12) Yeah. (37:13) We, so I do this exercise with families. (37:16) And if you've done any family governance work, probably your family has already done a mission statement and values and things like that.
(37:26) And they can, I think they should change over the years. (37:29) If you have young kids, they should be a part of that. (37:33) And it's really important to establish a few key values that your family goes for, because it directs your parenting and it directs your succession planning.
(37:45) And it directs how you and your family spend your time. (37:48) If the phrase I use is we're a family who, and if we're a family who cares about the environment, then we're probably going to spend our Saturdays at the park or taking our recycling on a Thursday, you know? (38:05) So what are your family's mission and values?
(38:10) And then it makes succession planning a lot easier when your kids are adults.
Julian Hayes II
(38:16) Is there a certain number? (38:19) This is probably, I guess this is showing, I've been in academia too much. (38:22) I still try to shed it off, but, you know, so I like, is there a certain amount of like values and stuff that you think is a good number?
Ruschelle Khanna
(38:31) I mean, three to five is enough. (38:34) We don't have to go crazy, but I think people have a hard time. (38:38) I'll give you a sheet, right?
(38:39) With, I usually use Brene Brown's list of values and there's 200 values on there. (38:47) I mean, so let's, I think it's important. (38:51) It is important to narrow it down so that in different seasons in your family, you may have different values, right?
(38:57) Like if you have teenagers, teenage boys, we're a family who values physical activity, right? (39:04) And so that's what we're doing. (39:06) Values can certainly change throughout the years.
Julian Hayes II
(39:10) This seems like a good thing to have for relationships in general. (39:14) I feel like this will help relationships.
Ruschelle Khanna
(39:17) So I'm a Gottman trained therapist, which is a couples, the Gottmans do couples therapy. (39:24) And I use the Gottman method for business consulting. (39:31) Every relationship dynamic, I use the Gottman method as another framework.
(39:38) So yeah, every, your family, whether it's your business, your relationship with your health routine, relationship with money, those core principles that the Gottmans teach, they have a book called The Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work. (39:56) And those seven principles are universal to all good relationships.
Julian Hayes II
(40:02) I'm going to check that book out.
Ruschelle Khanna
(40:04) Yeah, it's solid. (40:06) I mean, it's just a really good foundation for all relationships, whether you're a manager or looking to be in a romantic relationship. (40:16) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(40:17) Okay. (40:18) So I'm curious, over the course of time, and I'm sure when you've seen people do this work, that it has changed their leadership style and just their relationship in general. (40:32) What are some of the things that stick out to you the most, maybe one or two instances?
Ruschelle Khanna
(40:40) Well, when people start to recognize their unconscious inherited trauma patterns, for example, I was just on a call earlier, this person wasn't aware of their people-pleasing response. (40:58) So just when we become aware that I'm operating not from myself, not from my own personality, but from a set of coping mechanisms, then they can actually step into... (41:12) We hear this term like authentic leadership.
(41:15) What is authentic leadership? (41:16) Authentic leadership is just, I am myself and I'm not operating from some coping strategy. (41:24) Like if you have a boss who yells all the time and is abusive and it will rant, that person is operating from that cycle of chaos, one of those coping strategies.
(41:36) Wouldn't it be nice to see the real him, like the real calm, safe, and connected human that could be my boss? (41:45) So I think seeing people step into their authentic self and not have to be some scared persona of themselves is really rewarding.
Julian Hayes II
(41:57) And so I'm going to switch this up now. (41:59) We're going to do some, I guess, some rapid fire questions a little bit. (42:03) And so what are you most excited about right now?
Ruschelle Khanna
(42:07) My son, who will be a year in December, and I'm excited. (42:13) I just kind of came out of a health scare myself, so I'm excited for the new year and to get back into working full-time.
Julian Hayes II
(42:21) What's your favorite thing about motherhood?
Ruschelle Khanna
(42:25) Oh, just watching somebody experience life. (42:31) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(42:33) So I imagine it's almost like you get to go through childhood again.
Ruschelle Khanna
(42:37) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(42:37) In a certain extent.
Ruschelle Khanna
(42:38) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(42:40) What's your favorite, you lift weights, I believe, right? (42:44) What's your favorite, you have a favorite routine or favorite exercise that you like the most?
Ruschelle Khanna
(42:49) Well, right now I'm doing a lot of, I am nailing my handstand. (42:53) I'm doing a lot of calisthenics right now. (42:55) So.
Julian Hayes II
(42:56) Okay. (42:56) So that's a lot of body weight. (42:58) So you're good body weight controlled in.
Ruschelle Khanna
(42:59) Trying. (43:00) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(43:00) Yeah. (43:01) So that's some actual strength right there. (43:03) I think people over underrate just how much strength it takes to be in control of your own body weight.
(43:10) It's not the same as lifting a dumbbell.
Ruschelle Khanna
(43:13) Correct. (43:14) Yeah. (43:15) Yeah.
(43:15) I think it's great for longevity, calisthenics, like nothing better.
Julian Hayes II
(43:20) What does legacy mean to you?
Ruschelle Khanna
(43:24) Legacy is living your life fully in the present so that it echoes really beautifully into the future and to the people that are around you. (43:33) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(43:34) And we'll be nice. (43:35) We'll be on our best behavior here. (43:37) What's your favorite thing about New York City?
Ruschelle Khanna
(43:40) Oh, the food, man. (43:42) I miss the food. (43:43) I don't live there anymore.
(43:45) I lived there for 20 years. (43:47) Yeah. (43:47) The food.
(43:48) A, B, C, V. (43:49) I'm not vegan, but A, B, C, V has amazing. (43:53) It's a vegan, raw, vegan place.
(43:54) Not raw. (43:55) Sorry. (43:55) It's vegan.
(43:56) It's incredible. (43:57) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(43:58) Yeah. (43:59) Nashville doesn't have that to where whatever I want, I can just go get it just right now. (44:06) That's the only thing you don't have.
(44:07) You have convenience in New York City. (44:10) I will give them that.
Ruschelle Khanna
(44:11) Yes.
Julian Hayes II
(44:12) So I believe you're into historical fiction. (44:17) So sell me on the idea. (44:19) What's so appealing about historical fiction?
Ruschelle Khanna
(44:21) I think it's a great way to learn about history. (44:25) So before I went to Spain last year, I read, I can't remember. (44:30) It was about Ferdinand and his wife and the Spanish Inquisition.
(44:38) It was historical fiction about that. (44:40) I learned, I think it's a great way to immerse yourself and then go out and find the details and see what was true and what was fiction.
Julian Hayes II
(44:49) You know, that makes sense because it's presented in a way that is a little more entertaining than just going to read an actual history book of the same event. (44:58) And then that's going to, I would imagine if I was a kid again, or if I have a kid that I think I might take that approach. (45:05) If I don't, then we'll- Research, yeah.
(45:09) Yeah. (45:09) And put it in that way. (45:10) So you're giving me great future parenting advice.
(45:16) So what are you looking forward to in 2026? (45:19) Have you thought that far?
Ruschelle Khanna
(45:21) Well, so I had started a book project with a bunch of women in the family wealth space. (45:27) I had to pause that because I was sick. (45:30) It's called From Echo to Athena, the evolution of women during the Great Wealth Transfer.
(45:36) So I'm excited to get back into that. (45:38) I'm excited to keep promoting my book on inherited trauma. (45:42) Just started the Ancestral Healing Center.
(45:46) Yes. (45:47) Just started the, we're going to be doing courses on ancestral healing for people who want to do deep genealogy work. (45:54) And I also started day trading.
Julian Hayes II
(45:57) Really?
Ruschelle Khanna
(45:59) Just like, and I'm parenting now. (46:02) So yeah. (46:04) Okay.
Julian Hayes II
(46:05) With day trading, you have to keep your emotions in check, right? (46:09) Are you good at that?
Ruschelle Khanna
(46:10) I am so excited to learn more. (46:14) Yes. (46:15) So your emotions are the main thing that ruin you as a trader.
(46:21) So I'm excited to learn more about the strategies and then to get in there and start practicing what it feels like when real money is on the line. (46:30) So I'm still in my paper trading phase right now. (46:34) So yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(46:35) Is it, what started this? (46:36) Was it just curiosity?
Ruschelle Khanna
(46:38) I think becoming a mom. (46:41) I love, so I've been a therapist and a business consultant for over 20 years and I want to step back a little bit and have some other income that's not client facing. (46:54) And I'm just loving learning about the markets.
Julian Hayes II
(46:58) So now with women and family wealth, is that it's not as represented, right? (47:04) It's a pretty small percentage. (47:06) Am I right in that thinking?
Ruschelle Khanna
(47:08) Well, they're, you know, they're going to be the primary holders of wealth in the next few years. (47:12) So yes, as of right now, it's, we're still kind of trailing in the minority, but that it's not going to be that way for, for much longer.
Julian Hayes II
(47:22) That's another stat I didn't know.
Ruschelle Khanna
(47:25) Yeah, we'll be the primary holders of wealth in 30 years. (47:30) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(47:30) It's interesting. (47:33) So, I mean, that's, I guess, fellas out there, better be nice.
Ruschelle Khanna
(47:44) So, And ladies and ladies, you know, we're trying to bring things back into some sort of balance here. (47:52) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(47:54) So one of the last questions here is that someone sees you in line at the cafe. (47:59) It's a beautiful autumn mid morning and you're placing your order and you got your order. (48:06) You want to sit down and they come up to you and they say, look, I'm trying to build my wealth and my wellbeing.
(48:15) And if you can leave them with maybe one reflection or question to sit with tonight to make that journey a little bit better, what would it be?
Ruschelle Khanna
(48:26) So what they say to me is I want to work on my wealth and my wellbeing.
Julian Hayes II
(48:32) The true definition of wealth as you shared.
Ruschelle Khanna
(48:35) Okay. (48:35) So the first question that I would ask them is how satisfied are you right now in your life? (48:42) And let's just have a conversation about satisfaction.
Julian Hayes II
(48:48) Simple, but very effective. (48:50) Because a lot of times you can get on a destination and if it's not the one you want, you can have everything there. (48:56) You're going to be quite disappointed.
Ruschelle Khanna
(48:58) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(48:59) So this has been an awesome conversation. (49:01) I could talk to you forever. (49:04) Where can listeners and viewers that see this in the future, where can they keep up with your adventures?
Ruschelle Khanna
(49:11) You can find me at lifestyleforlegacy.com. (49:17) Theancestralhealingcenter.com. (49:18) And I've been off of LinkedIn for a month, but I will be back on LinkedIn soon.
(49:24) And I'm there a lot.
Julian Hayes II
(49:26) Yeah. (49:27) Yeah, she is. (49:27) That's where we connected.
(49:29) And I will have all this in the show notes. (49:32) And thank you again for joining me. (49:33) And listeners out there, stay awesome, be limitless.
(49:36) And as always, go be the CEO of your health and life and optimize today and lead tomorrow. (49:40) Peace.
