From Baggage Handler to Private Jet President: Stephanie Chung on High-Performance Leadership
In the world of aviation, few stories embody resilience and reinvention quite like Stephanie Chung’s. She began her career loading luggage on the tarmac at Boston Logan Airport. Decades later, she made history as the first African American to lead a major private aviation company in the United States when she became President of JetSuite.
Chung’s journey isn’t just about professional milestones. It’s about redefining leadership for the modern era, in particular, building high-performance teams, leading people who aren’t like you, and sustaining excellence without burning out
Watch The Conversation
Growing Up in a World of Excellence
Chung’s early exposure to aviation was shaped by her father, a master sergeant in the U.S. Air Force. Growing up on military bases, she was surrounded by precision and discipline: uniforms pressed to perfection, shoes polished, and workouts completed before most civilians were awake.
“Excellence is the goal,” Chung recalls. “It’s not something you eventually reach. It’s where you begin.”
This early conditioning left an indelible mark on her leadership philosophy. From the start, she understood that greatness requires standards, not just aspirations.
The Professional “New Kid”
Frequent moves from base to base turned Chung into what she calls a “professional new kid.” Each relocation forced her to adapt to new schools, communities, and friends. Rather than resisting change, she developed adaptability as a core skill, which later became invaluable in business.
“I had to learn how to interact with people who weren’t like me. If I didn’t, I’d be a little kid with no friends,” she explained. That instinct, to observe, adapt, and connect, eventually informed the central thesis of her leadership book, Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You.
Private Aviation and the Mindset Shift
Chung’s transition into private aviation introduced her to a world of aspirational clients — not just celebrities, but business leaders and entrepreneurs quietly running billion-dollar enterprises. Selling to the “1% of the 1%” required more than technical expertise; it demanded curiosity, credibility, and the ability to hold conversations that mattered.
Here, she saw a key truth: the product is secondary. What sets a luxury company apart is its mindset. As she put it, “You don’t build a Louis Vuitton experience with a Payless mentality.”
Leading JetSuite, Chung focused her first 90 days not on making sweeping changes, but on listening, observing, and creating psychological safety for her team. From there, she began the arduous task of shifting the culture from commodity thinking to luxury-level excellence.
Ally Leadership: Ask. Listen. Learn. Act.
At the heart of Chung’s leadership framework is a simple acronym: ALLY.
Ask questions you don’t know the answers to.
Listen deeply, beyond the surface.
Learn from diverse perspectives.
Act with intention, because awareness without action is meaningless.
This approach is not performative diversity. For Chung, allyship must be earned. Leaders create environments where people feel valued, ensure alignment so that teams understand the mission, respect the truth, and then navigate the path forward together.
Her message is clear: diverse teams consistently outperform homogeneous ones, but only if they are led with intention.
Leading After Cancer
In 2008, Chung was diagnosed with breast cancer. The experience changed her leadership forever.
Before cancer, she admits, her style was relentless: “Mission first, no excuses.” After cancer, she recognized the need to build teams like a championship roster where different talents, temperaments, and rhythms combined to form something greater than the sum of its parts.
She stopped hiring people who looked and thought just like her. Instead, she built teams with “offense, defense, and midfield,” recognizing that sustainable success requires balance, not constant sprinting.
Family, Balance, and Perspective
Despite her demanding career, Chung and her husband, now married more than 35 years, made an early commitment to be present for their daughter’s milestones. Stephanie traveled frequently, but she refused to miss her daughter’s events. On the rare occasions when she couldn’t be home, she created small rituals, such as leaving wrapped gifts for each night she was away, to keep the connection alive.
That commitment to family mirrored her leadership values: consistency, thoughtfulness, and making others feel seen.
A Legacy of Breaking Barriers
Chung describes private aviation as “pale, male, and stale,” but she never let that discourage her. Instead, she broke barriers while raising the bar for what leadership could look like.
Her message for today’s leaders is simple yet powerful: stop trying to be the superhero. Take off the cape. Let your team contribute their brilliance.
As she puts it, “Leadership isn’t about telling people what to do. It’s about empowering people to lead themselves, with you there to provide guidance and guardrails.”
Key Takeaways
Excellence starts at the baseline. For Chung, excellence isn’t an end state, but rather the standard by which you begin.
Adaptability is leadership currency. Moving through unfamiliar spaces builds the muscle leaders need today.
Diverse teams outperform — if led well. Leadership must go beyond tokenism and focus on alignment, safety, and action.
Sustainability matters. True leadership means building teams that can run at different rhythms and still succeed together.
Family and balance aren’t afterthoughts. They’re part of the same discipline that fuels excellence in leadership.
Stephanie Chung’s story is more than a career trajectory. It’s a roadmap for leaders navigating a complex, diverse, and high-stakes world. From the baggage ramp to the boardroom, she has proven that excellence isn’t about where you start; it’s about the standards you choose to uphold.
Connect with Stephanie Chung
Website: https://stephaniechung.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/TheStephanieChung/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheStephanieChung/
Stephanie Chung Conversation Transcript (May Not Be Exact)
Julian Hayes II
(0:52) And so thank you, Stephanie, for joining me. (0:54) The first thing I have to ask is, right?
(0:57) Baggage handler, ground staff at Piedmont Airlines, which I didn't know of, and it's later US Airways, and becoming president of JetSuite and tons of other roles. (1:09) If I go back to you as a little girl, were there clues that you were gonna be in this industry?
Stephanie Chung
(1:16) Yes, 100%. (1:16) I was actually, Julian, it's such a great question. (1:19) I was that little girl that knew exactly what I wanted to do, right?
(1:22) So my dad was a master sergeant in the US Air Force. (1:25) So I grew up hearing planes take off and land my entire life since day one of my life, because I always lived on active Air Force bases. (1:33) So I knew early on that I wanted to be in aviation, like I just fell in love with it.
(1:37) And we traveled so much because every two years we'd have to move to a different base. (1:42) Now, here's the issue though, Julian. (1:44) So when I was little, and this is way back in the day, whenever I would see aviators depicted in TV or film or magazines or anything like that, I would see if you were a man, you were a pilot.
(1:56) And if you were a woman, you were a flight attendant. (1:59) And so that was the first thing. (2:01) The second thing is none of those pictures ever looked like me.
(2:03) And so as an African American, it's like, though I wanted to be in aviation, I'd never seen a person of color depicted as an aviator back in the day. (2:12) And so I really didn't know what I could do. (2:14) And that's why I started off, very first job I had in aviation was starting at the bottom, parking planes, loading luggage at the Boston Logan Airport.
(2:23) And then to make extra money, because I always needed extra money, I'd go work upstairs at the ticket counter checking customers in for their flight. (2:30) And that's really where it all started for me. (2:32) There was a gentleman who was one of the executives for the airline that I worked for, and he was head of sales.
(2:38) And so one day he came over to me when I was at the ticket counter and he said, he'd never spoken to me before. (2:43) And he said, Steph, every time I come to this airport, I see you. (2:47) I see you checking customers in with a smile on your face.
(2:50) I think we have you in the wrong position. (2:52) I think you should be in sales. (2:54) And so from there, I moved from the ramp, then got promoted into sales, sold for the airlines for many, many years, and then got recruited out of the airline sales into private aviation sales.
(3:05) And that's where I've spent the majority of my career.
Julian Hayes II
(3:08) Now, I'm already seeing some clues already. (3:10) I think I'm putting some things together. (3:12) You're moving every two years.
Stephanie Chung
(3:14) Yes.
Julian Hayes II
(3:14) And so that automatically, you're gonna meet so many different types of people. (3:19) And so this is almost like a cheat code as you get into the professional world, right?
Stephanie Chung
(3:25) Right, right.
Julian Hayes II
(3:26) Whereas most of us, maybe we see a couple of different types of people, but you, it's all over because that's what that teaches you. (3:32) Am I correct on this?
Stephanie Chung
(3:33) That you are so spot on. (3:35) And that is, I believe, one of the reasons why I was inspired to write the book, right? (3:40) Because as a little girl, I always was the new kid.
(3:44) I am a professional new kid, even as an adult, right? (3:48) And what that means is I was always the new kid in school. (3:51) I had to adjust to the new neighborhood, the new school, the new teacher.
(3:54) So I'm very good with adaptability because I had to. (3:58) If I didn't adjust and didn't pick up other people's communication styles and what really made them tick, if you will, I'd be a little kid with no friends. (4:08) And so even as a child, I had to learn how to interact with people who weren't like me.
(4:13) And so it's second nature to me now. (4:15) And what I've learned to appreciate is it's not necessarily second nature to everyone else, which I know we'll talk about the book later, but that's one of the reasons why I wrote the book is really so people could see, here's how you do it, right? (4:28) Because I've had to do it literally since the day I was born.
Julian Hayes II
(4:31) Absolutely. (4:32) And it's a great book here. (4:33) It's right here.
(4:34) And so it's in her background too, but I wanted to show a full picture of it. (4:38) But so I'm sure that that teaches you patience. (4:41) And so as you're rising up the ranks, the private aviation industry, I don't know anything about it.
(4:48) That is one of the things that I would, as I get older, I would want to splurge on. (4:52) I'm not really into a lot of things, but something about private aviation really just looks cool to me.
Stephanie Chung
(4:58) So- Do it, Julian, do it. (4:59) You call me when you're ready. (5:00) I know people.
Julian Hayes II
(5:03) No, I'm curious. (5:05) What's your favorite thing about the private aviation industry?
Stephanie Chung
(5:08) That's such a good question. (5:10) I've been in it so long. (5:12) I love it for a lot of different reasons.
(5:14) And so I would say the first one is, to your point, it's just got a cool factor, right? (5:20) What's great about the private aviation industry is it's an aspirational industry. (5:25) So either you have, like you want to fly on a private jet, like you'd mentioned, or you want to be able to have the resources to be able to fly on a private jet or by a private jet.
(5:36) Whether you do it or not becomes a moot point. (5:38) You want to be able to be in that type of position that one day you can. (5:43) So it's an incredibly aspirational industry.
(5:46) And with that means that you have to think a little bit differently because it's not a commodity, right? (5:52) You know, when you're selling private aviation, you're really looking for the 1% of the 1% of the 1%. (5:58) So it's a very small group that you're focused on when it comes to selling.
(6:04) And what's cool about this particular type of client, yes, it's a high network client, but it's also a client that's incredibly inquisitive. (6:14) You know, you don't reach that kind of status and level and financial opportunities and financial just position without being curious, without doing things differently, without just having just a different stance about you. (6:28) So it's very cool to interact with those types of folks.
(6:32) A lot of times when people think of private aviation, they think of just celebrities or athletes or rappers. (6:38) And so, yes, that's a group that flies privately, but a majority of the people who fly privately are just, you know, people like, you know, the millionaire next door, right? (6:48) They're running a privately held company.
(6:49) You've probably never even heard of them before. (6:51) And yet they've been able to obtain a certain amount of wealth through the business that they've created or that they work for, what have you. (6:59) That's a majority of people who fly privately.
(7:02) And so it's really cool to get to know them and kind of hear their story. (7:05) And more importantly, just see how inquisitive they are and how their mind works. (7:10) So that's, I would say, probably one of the biggest advantages.
(7:12) And then just the people. (7:13) The people are really great in the private aviation industry as well.
Julian Hayes II
(7:17) Yeah, being around that environment, I'm sure it makes you think bigger as well.
Stephanie Chung
(7:22) Yes, yes.
Julian Hayes II
(7:24) And so, but I'm also, maybe some people talk about imposter syndrome or whatnot when they're selling to people who they deem higher or things like that, whatever they want to call it. (7:33) Did you ever have anything like that where it's like, oh man, I feel over my head or anything selling to these types of people?
Stephanie Chung
(7:40) Well, you know what's really, it's interesting, I've never, thank God for my parents, right? (7:45) My parents raised me that if I'm in the room, I'm in the room and I should be there and use my voice while I'm there, right? (7:51) Say something, something of value.
(7:53) So that's been instilled in me. (7:55) I would say I'm a child of a soldier. (7:57) So there's not much I don't think I can get accomplished because I was raised on military bases where I got to see America's finest day in and day out.
(8:06) And something I think you'll appreciate as a person who's really focused on health, a lot of times people ask me about just what it was like to grow up on military bases. (8:15) And think about it this way, Julian, I grew up around excellence. (8:18) Like literally, you don't see sloppy soldiers, you don't see their clothes all wrinkled up, you don't see their shoes all dusty.
(8:26) Like you see their hair is like precise, right? (8:29) Their clothes are creased and they're fit. (8:32) And so as a little girl waiting for the bus to pick me up for school, I'd be watching them running and doing all their, they've done more by 6 a.m. than most of us have done all day, right? (8:42) So that's how I grew up. (8:43) So I grew up seeing excellence. (8:46) And therefore what I understood as a little girl is that excellence is the goal, right?
(8:52) It's not like you hope to get there, like you gotta start there. (8:55) That's where you start. (8:56) And then the rest is the effort that you put into it.
(8:59) So I'm incredibly grateful for that type of upbringing because going back to answering your question, what that instilled in me is I don't necessarily, sometimes I may have imposter syndrome here and there because sometimes I'm in rooms where I'm like, is anybody seeing this? (9:14) Like, this is crazy, right? (9:15) But for the most part, I'm incredibly confident in my capabilities because what I've learned about these folks is that they're just like you and I.
(9:25) They have the same challenges that we have and they put their pants on one leg at a time. (9:30) And so that's been, but my upbringing helped, I think helped me a lot to realize that there's nothing super special about them. (9:38) They're just, they have a different life than maybe most of us do.
Julian Hayes II
(9:42) Yeah, I like to think that they just made different sacrifices, different choices and decisions and that's pretty much it.
Stephanie Chung
(9:51) Yeah, I'll tell you this funny story. (9:52) When I first got into private aviation and probably one of my very first clients that I ever signed and he and I just, he kind of took me in. (10:01) He was just like such a great, great gentleman.
(10:04) And he would invite me to his parties, like he ran a lot of different companies. (10:09) And so whenever he would have parties for his direct reports, his kind of his team that makes it all work, makes his empire work, he would invite me and my husband and just really a kind man. (10:21) So I got to know a lot of his folks that worked for him.
(10:25) And I'll never forget one day I was there. (10:27) So we had this party at this particular, his house in Palm, he had a lot of houses, but this particular party was in Palm Beach. (10:34) And so I'm in the house and saying hi to all of his inner circle.
(10:39) And I'll never forget there was this woman there and she ran all of his estates. (10:45) And so I ended up meeting her, some kind of way I met her. (10:48) She was in the kitchen kind of making sure everything was working correctly.
(10:52) She was in command of the whole place. (10:55) And I remember just, instead of being with all the inner circle, I was in the kitchen with her because I found her so fascinating. (11:04) And she was a woman, she was a black woman that spoke seven different languages.
(11:09) Just, I mean, just highly, highly educated and with life experience beyond this book education. (11:16) And she just held herself with such grace. (11:18) And she was just running like an orchestra back there.
(11:22) And I loved, loved, loved hanging out with her and hearing her story, where she was born, where she lived, all the countries she lived in and just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. (11:32) And so I tell that story because he himself was fascinating, but who he surrounded himself with was also equally as fascinating. (11:42) And so it wasn't just, it's just him.
(11:44) What I find is a lot of times those particular folks at that type of level, it's they have their inner circle, which I was a part of his inner circle. (11:53) They're the ones that help, they help them make easy decisions or make their decisions faster, right? (11:59) That's their inner circle.
(12:00) Who do I call about my finances, about my jet, about my medical? (12:03) There's, that's the inner circle. (12:05) One call, they handle it.
(12:07) And so that's really cool. (12:08) But then more importantly, the people who work for them, so I'm part of the inner circle, but make their whole operation tick. (12:14) They're incredibly intelligent and inquisitive and kind as well.
(12:19) And so it is a very different arena that I was, I wasn't used to it as a military child. (12:25) I was used to a certain type of arena, but certainly that was new for me. (12:29) So no, I didn't have imposter syndrome, but I certainly did expand my mind in a lot of different ways.
Julian Hayes II
(12:35) Seven languages, I gotta catch up with her. (12:38) I mean, oh my goodness. (12:39) I know, right?
(12:40) I'm working on two right now, but I gotta catch up, but it's always good to have somebody else that's even more to keep you striving, but seven languages.
Stephanie Chung
(12:49) I know.
Julian Hayes II
(12:50) So I looked at one of your Instagram posts and you talked about being a trailblazer. (12:55) And so I'm curious, is this, are you born an in it trailblazer or can you develop into one no matter your age or where you are in life right now?
Stephanie Chung
(13:04) You know, that's a great question. (13:06) And I don't actually know the answer to that, right? (13:08) Here's what I can tell you from my perspective is the, you know, and I'm not sure which post you're referring to, but, you know, we have an assessment, a leadership assessment.
(13:17) And when I took the assessment, I was a trailblazer, but a lot of times what happens is the way that people may describe me because of the history that I've made and whatnot, they may label me as a trailblazer. (13:28) So depending on which angle you're coming from, I'll give you my perspective. (13:33) My perspective is really simple, that, you know, where I'm at in life and kind of the, I guess the life that, you know, that I was purposed to lead, if you will, it really, it fits my personality.
(13:46) And so I personally believe that, you know, (13:48) whatever it is that you're calling your gift, your talent, (13:51) a lot of it, you can start to see when you were little (13:53) and how you were, you know, growing up (13:56) and the different things, the good and the bad (13:58) that were happening to you kind of gets you in position (14:01) for when you get to whatever that position is (14:04) at every stage of your life, (14:05) you can look back on things that you learned (14:08) throughout life that will help you (14:10) with where you are at right now. (14:11) And so for me, when I think of the word trailblazer, it's typically, you know, I'm not afraid to try it.
(14:18) I'm gonna push through, I'm gonna make it happen some kind of way, right? (14:22) If I'm committed and passionate about it. (14:24) And so when I look at my upbringing, moving every two years, always having to be the new kid, always having to figure it out, that then lends itself to what I naturally do now, if that makes sense.
Julian Hayes II
(14:36) Absolutely, yeah, and that's what I wanted. (14:38) Cause I don't think there is like a scientific answer to say you can do it or not, but I think we all have different perspectives on that. (14:45) And I think that's a good point.
(14:47) When I think about a lot of things as a kid and growing up and it's kind of some similarities in terms of what I'm doing now, what I'm building now and kind of being in a bunch of different boxes and everything, that's kind of how it was as a kid. (14:59) So I think there is a lot of merit to that right there. (15:03) Now I'm gonna transition kind of to your role as the president of JetSuite, I believe.
(15:09) And do you remember your first 90 days there when you're leading?
Stephanie Chung
(15:12) I do, I do. (15:15) So when I became the president of JetSuite, that made me the first black person in US history to ever run and lead a major private aviation company. (15:24) So it was a big deal for the industry.
(15:27) It was a big deal, of course, for me. (15:28) It was certainly a big deal for people who look like me, cause it'd never been done before. (15:35) And so my first 90 days was just trying to understand, cause we were trying to take the business from a commodity to more of a luxury product.
(15:43) And so what I did there and what I typically do the first 90 days anywhere, any company that I work for is just to sit back, listen and learn, right? (15:53) Because at the beginning of the day, the worst thing, and I've had bosses like this, when they come in and start telling everybody how to do stuff and they don't even know where the bathroom's at at this point, it just becomes irritating, right? (16:04) And so my particular stance, whenever I take over a new team (16:08) or division or company or what have you, (16:12) is I will always spend the first day, (16:14) the first day I always meet with my direct reports (16:17) and I set the stage and I will basically say the same thing (16:21) every single time, which is on this team, (16:24) we are gonna be each other's keeper (16:26) and we're gonna either all win together (16:28) or we're gonna all lose together, but it's our choice, right? (16:32) And so I set the stage so everybody realizes that, no, we're a team here.
(16:35) I don't know what was going on before I got here, but from this point on, we're gonna have each other's back. (16:40) We're gonna care about each other and we're gonna work together to get the job done. (16:45) Now, that's one part of the speech.
(16:47) The other part of the speech is to tell them (16:49) a little bit about myself because it's important (16:51) that they understand my particular leadership style (16:54) and why that's important is, for an example, (16:57) I may say something like, once I go through, (17:00) they already know my credentials and bio and whatnot, (17:02) but what they may not know about me is my personal life, (17:05) right, so I'm married to the same man (17:07) for 37 years, we have one child, she's 35.
(17:10) My husband's Japanese, which is why the black lady has an Asian last name, right? (17:15) So I get all that stuff out the way because usually people are wondering like, how did she get the last name, John? (17:20) But they don't wanna ask, right?
(17:21) So I get all that out the way. (17:24) And then I'll say things like, I do believe in you being able to have work-life integration. (17:30) I personally don't work over the weekend unless it's a really pressing issue, but I may look at emails over the weekend just because it fits in my schedule.
(17:40) I may respond to an email that you sent me over the weekend. (17:43) I don't expect you to respond to me over the weekend, right? (17:47) So I'm integrating my work in my life and so I may do things that doesn't mean you have to fit that same schedule.
(17:55) You fit the schedule that works for you so that I can make sure that you're able to be productive and I can get the best result out of you. (18:02) But it doesn't mean you have to mirror my schedule, right? (18:05) So there's things like that that I may do at the beginning just to let everybody know kind of how this team is going to run under my leadership.
(18:14) And then of course, I'll sit back and have them ask me any question. (18:17) I always say, you can ask me any question except for how much do I weigh, right? (18:20) I'm not, I'll answer anything.
(18:23) But why that's important is at least they have it, I want them to understand me, my head, my heart, everything. (18:31) And then from there, I'm now gonna sit back and listen and pay attention. (18:36) I'm not gonna make any major moves, especially when it comes to people because I need the time to be able to watch and see and observe for myself.
(18:44) Usually when you come into a company, the executive, the CEO, the board, whatever your role is, they've already given you a good understanding of how they see it. (18:53) But as a leader, I need to see it for myself. (18:56) And so I'm not gonna make any major people moves at the beginning.
(18:59) But what I can do is pay attention to process because my focus is how do I streamline the process so that our folks can be more productive so we can get a better result. (19:10) That I can pay attention to right away and I can make moves right away with that, right? (19:15) But I always wanna honor the people that work there and really give enough time so that I'm not making any hasty decisions because any decision I make about the people will be life-changing for them.
(19:26) And so I wanna be able to be quite sure before I make those kinds of decisions.
Julian Hayes II
(19:32) Man, I love that answer, the thoroughness of that answer. (19:35) I actually took a lot from that thinking for myself. (19:39) I'm curious, transitioning from a commodity to a luxury product.
(19:44) I know there's tactical things involved in that but I'm sure there's also more of a mental shift and almost like an invisible influences in terms of like shifting to that because I look at different luxury products myself and kind of like you said, there's a bit aspirational in there. (20:02) So how do you make that transition? (20:06) Sorry.
Stephanie Chung
(20:06) Go ahead, nope. (20:07) You can finish your second part of your question.
Julian Hayes II
(20:09) Yeah, and because the market's expecting one thing and then now you're shifting over to something completely different.
Stephanie Chung
(20:16) Yeah, so thank you for the question. (20:18) And I've had to do this a few times for a few different companies that I've worked for. (20:23) Here's what I will tell you.
(20:24) It's not about the product necessarily, that's a piece of it. (20:28) But usually the biggest lift and the heaviest lift is the mindset of the people. (20:33) And so that's where you've got to get them to shift.
(20:35) And so let's think of it this way. (20:37) If you go into a Louis Vuitton store, right? (20:41) It's one of their boutique stores.
(20:43) You go in there, you're expecting a certain level of service. (20:46) You're expecting that person who works there to understand the product, the ins and outs of the product, how it was made, what it was made, what's the stitching, what's the material. (20:55) Like you expect a lot from them to know because they only have to know that one product, right?
(21:00) You just know Louis Vuitton, you're just a Louis Vuitton store. (21:03) If you go into a Neiman Marcus or a Nordstrom or any of the big, you know, bigger stores and you go into the Louis Vuitton section, right? (21:14) That employee may not know as much, even though it's still, they have some Louis Vuitton, but they're probably selling a bunch of other stuff too, right?
(21:22) So you don't expect the same level of service and even though it's the same product, right? (21:28) So, and what's the difference there? (21:30) Well, the product's the same, so that's not different.
(21:32) What's different is the mindset of the people, right? (21:34) What's different is how much training does the person who only works for Louis Vuitton, how much training are they getting from Louis Vuitton corporate, right? (21:43) Versus the person who works at Neiman Marcus is probably not getting trained from Louis Vuitton corporate, they're getting trained from corporate, right?
(21:49) And then, you know, there's some Louis Vuitton stuff sprinkled in the middle of it. (21:53) So it's a very different mentality. (21:55) So when you're looking at any type of product and you're trying to take it from one position to another, you're really spending a lot of time with your folks' mentality first.
(22:05) And you've gotta be honest too. (22:07) Some people shouldn't work at Louis Vuitton, the boutique store, right? (22:12) You know, if you used to work at Payless and now we've just hired you for Louis Vuitton, there's gonna be a mentality difference.
(22:18) Doesn't mean good or bad, better or worse, it just means different. (22:21) And so you've gotta get the mentality to where you need it to be, especially if you're selling a luxury product or a high-end product, right? (22:30) There has to be a mindset that matches that.
(22:33) And I'll give you an example, Julian. (22:37) I explained the type of client who flies privately, very inquisitive, very smart, very educated, obviously. (22:45) That means that whoever is working with them and selling to them, you have to be able to carry a conversation about stuff that matters, right?
(22:54) So one of the things that I used to do when interviewing folks is, one of my favorite questions is to ask, tell me about the five people, if you could have a dinner party and you could invite anybody you want in the world, dead or alive, and you can invite five people, who would you pick and why? (23:11) So the reason why that question's important is it tells me a lot about you. (23:15) I can't ask certain questions legally that I really wanna know, right?
(23:18) So I can't ask those questions, but I can find out the same answer by asking different questions, right? (23:24) That's one of my favorite questions is if you had a dinner party and could invite five people, dead or alive, who would you invite and why? (23:30) Now, if the person says to me, oh my gosh, I'd invite Kim Kardashian and Lindsay, Bretton Spears, and gosh, who else?
(23:40) I don't even know who's new these days. (23:42) Justin Bieber. (23:43) If they're saying stuff like that, nothing wrong with that.
(23:47) But what that tells me is, okay, they're really into pop culture, social, that's one thing. (23:53) If they said, well, I would invite Martin Luther King because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. (23:58) If I would invite, let's say I would invite Jesus, the Pope and Mother Teresa, where they lean religiously, right?
(24:06) So all those things are helpful when I think about the client that they're going to serve. (24:12) And so if the client they're gonna serve is more the influencer pop culture type of philosophy, then the Britney Spears, the Kim Kardashian, the Justin Bieber philosophy could work. (24:26) But knowing that's probably not the client that we're gonna serve, then I don't need that person because their capacity to have a conversation about what's going on in the financial markets, what's going on in X, Y, Z country, what's going on with the terrorists, they're not gonna be able to have that conversation, right?
(24:42) There's a gap there. (24:43) And so that's, for all your listeners, that's like my favorite question. (24:47) That's an easy question for you to figure out, what am I actually working with?
(24:51) And then mirror that to the type of client that they're going to be in charge of serving.
Julian Hayes II
(24:56) Man, I have to hold in a smile. (24:58) I literally asked this question. (24:59) I used to ask this question all the time on the podcast.
(25:01) I kept it at three, but, and I did that because just like you said, it's a way to give you an idea about, tell me about yourself without actually telling me about yourself.
Stephanie Chung
(25:10) Yeah, and the reason why I do five is three is most of us can get to three, right? (25:16) It's four and five, that's actually really, really hard. (25:19) And so when you think about interviewing someone for a job, which is different obviously from a podcast, but when you're thinking about interviewing someone for a job, a lot of it, you're trying to figure out like, are they just a really good interviewer, right?
(25:31) Or are they actually really good at what they do? (25:33) And so you're trying to decipher that throughout the interview process because the credentials are there. (25:38) The resume tells you that they've got the goods to do it.
(25:42) Now you're just trying to figure out, do they have the, you know, are they gonna be a good fit for the team and for the company? (25:48) So three is easier, five is tough. (25:51) So I really get their truth at four and five, right?
(25:54) Because now they gotta really think and stretch their head a little bit and that's what I'm looking for. (25:59) So there's, so I love that you asked the question and for a podcast, you should just stick it to two or three, but five is, for those of you interviewing, do the five, you know?
Julian Hayes II
(26:09) Now I'm curious, can we please take a quick detour? (26:11) What are your three to five?
Stephanie Chung
(26:14) I actually never tell. (26:15) I don't tell, you know why? (26:17) I don't, I never tell because I'll probably either interview somebody one day or, you know, I do a lot of press, I do a lot of interviews, I'm on boards.
(26:25) And so what I don't want is people to mirror what they've seen or heard me say one day. (26:29) So I'll give you an example. (26:30) This is why, this is what made me not ever do this again is one day I was interviewing someone, asked the question and the gentleman kept, and I could tell he'd done a lot of research on me because the answers that he was giving me were answers that somewhere along the line I had said and it was driving me crazy because I was thinking, this guy's lying.
(26:52) Like, I don't feel like he's, like he would invite this person. (26:55) He probably didn't know this person is, right? (26:56) But he's done his research, so kudos to him there.
(26:59) But that convinced me from that point on, I will never share what I would actually say because people can find it. (27:05) And then I do still do a lot of interviews and helping other companies out or boards that I'm on or whatever. (27:11) So it's all my secret.
Julian Hayes II
(27:13) That's a good point. (27:14) I didn't even think about that. (27:15) Cause he's telling you everything that you want to hear, right?
Stephanie Chung
(27:19) Yes, exactly. (27:20) And this is like, this is the scary part of AI, right? (27:23) Or as you can find out, you can be a bot and be me before you know it, so.
Julian Hayes II
(27:28) But I think this is a good transition. (27:30) He could have just been, he could have just read the book.
Stephanie Chung
(27:33) Oh no, this was before the book was out.
Julian Hayes II
(27:34) Oh, okay. (27:35) Okay, nevermind. (27:36) I was gonna say that, you know, one of the key aspects of this book is about listening.
Stephanie Chung
(27:40) Yes, yes, exactly. (27:42) Listening is so important.
Julian Hayes II
(27:44) Yeah. (27:45) So, you know, speaking of the book, what got you, what inspired you to write the book?
Stephanie Chung
(27:50) Yes, thank you for the question. (27:52) So, you know, it's interesting. (27:54) So as a speaker, I spend a majority of my time speaking.
(27:57) I'm a keynote speaker, so I'm usually on the stage. (28:00) And my speaker's girl was the one who said, hey, listen, people are asking, does she have a book? (28:05) So you should think about writing a book.
(28:07) And at the time I wasn't just speaking, I was also working executive. (28:10) And so I didn't have time to write a book, truth be told. (28:12) And so, you know, I figured when my schedule got a little bit more conducive for me to be able to spend the time writing a book, then I'll do it.
(28:20) But for now, you know, not something I was interested in. (28:24) When my schedule started to free up and change and whatnot, then I decided, okay, if I'm gonna write a book, what kind of book do I feel qualified to actually write, right? (28:33) So I went away by myself.
(28:35) I'd never done that before. (28:36) I went away, literally went in the woods, right? (28:39) And I got off internet, no phones, no internet.
(28:42) I completely discharged from the world. (28:46) And I just spent five days by myself. (28:49) And my goal there was to be able to just think about the book and what would it look like and so on and so forth.
(28:55) I'm a woman of faith. (28:56) And so what ended up happening the first three days is I just, unbeknownst to me, really spent time just, I would say it was me and Jesus for three days, right? (29:06) Just like really, really, really focused and praying and just, you know, spending time by myself and listening to my Lord.
(29:14) And then days four and five is when I started to get clarity on what that outline should be. (29:20) So I feel like the book was very much inspired. (29:22) And this was, you know, 18 months ago, two years ago.
(29:25) Who knew what the world was gonna be going through as we stand here now? (29:29) So now I feel like the book is incredibly timely because it's all about how do you lead people who are not like you? (29:36) And that's not, and what I mean by that, let me just say this part.
(29:41) The book is called Ally Leadership, how to lead people who are not like you. (29:45) Ally is an acronym. (29:46) So it stands for ask, listen, learn, you take action.
(29:51) So that's really important. (29:52) That's the type of leadership that I believe is needed for the 21st century. (29:57) And the reason why I say that is today's modern workforce is incredibly complex.
(30:03) So right now, Julian, we've got six generations at work and that's unheard of. (30:08) It's never been done in history. (30:09) So you've got workers from 16 to 75.
(30:12) That's a huge gap. (30:14) And we all know that intergenerationally, boomers don't think like Gen Z or Zoomers. (30:19) You know, they don't have the same expectation or perspective or even how they see work, right?
(30:24) Everything's different. (30:25) So that's the first situation we're dealing with with today's modern workforce, six generations at work. (30:30) Second one, second generation situation is the fact that we've got women as the majority of the population.
(30:38) Why that's important is because women see things differently, we communicate differently, we lead differently. (30:44) And so that changes the dynamics of work. (30:46) Then we've got all the ethnic demographics that are shifting and changing.
(30:50) And so all the ethnic races are growing, non-ethnic race is shrinking. (30:54) So that changes the dynamics of work. (30:57) Then we've got people who are different able-bodied folks.
(30:59) We have people with different neurodiversities. (31:01) We have the LGBTQ plus community. (31:04) We've got a plethora of people who are not like each other and they're not like you, the leader.
(31:11) And so the question becomes, how do you take all of societal changes and the workforce changes? (31:16) And how do you still get all these folks who are so different, how do you still position them to win? (31:22) And that's what this book is all about.
(31:24) Because what we talk about in society, listen, the whole world's global with the push of a button, we can connect with anyone, anywhere, anytime, right? (31:32) So the game has changed. (31:34) And so as leaders, you cannot lead with the same playbook you were given.
(31:38) The time has changed and that playbook no longer applies. (31:42) And so we talk a lot about all the benefits of having a team that is soaked in differences, right? (31:49) But what we, so diverse teams, we don't have to have the conversation.
(31:52) They simply outperform traditional teams in every single statistic. (31:56) Don't listen to me, Google it for yourself. (31:59) Harvard has reports, Deloitte has reports, McKenzie has reports, the information is out there.
(32:04) Diverse teams are simply better than teams that look alike, think alike, communicate alike and have the same exact background, okay? (32:10) With that said, what we don't talk about is how do you lead all of these differences, right? (32:16) So yes, diverse teams are better from a results perspective, but it's also very challenging from a leadership perspective.
(32:23) So how do you lead people who are not just not like you, but they're not like each other and still get them to be able to produce a result? (32:32) Well, the result is one less thing, but how do you still get the team to win, right? (32:36) That's what the book is all about.
(32:38) And it goes, you know, and so for me, it's a love letter to leaders because I know how hard leadership is, especially these days. (32:44) And so this isn't a book to beat anybody up. (32:46) This is a book to say, this is my, you know, this is what worked for me.
(32:50) I came from a male dominated industry and yet I was able to hit the highest level and here's how I did it. (32:57) And so the book is like, here's hopes that this may, you'll find some tools in here that could be helpful for you as well.
Julian Hayes II
(33:03) Yeah, one of the chapters, I think it will be cool to expand on is, or expound on is what you said, your in-group should be a window, not a mirror. (33:11) And I like that. (33:12) Yes, yeah.
Stephanie Chung
(33:13) Yeah, so one of the things that I talk about, and you read the book, so you see, I spent a lot of time on the brain part of it at the beginning so that we can not have to have a conversation about my opinion or your opinion, but it's like, well, what is the brain? (33:26) Like the brain controls pretty much everything, right? (33:28) So let's start there.
(33:30) What do we instinctively do and not do? (33:32) And what things that we could help us and hurt us in this as we get to, get to know more people that are not like us and lead people who are not like us. (33:40) And so what you're referring to is the brain will naturally, so this is an instinct that happens within nanoseconds and it's not something that you're gonna be able to change.
(33:50) So that's the bad news. (33:51) But there's good news at the end of the story. (33:54) So what happens is whenever the brain sees a face, it will automatically stick that face, that person, whether it's on a picture, in person, in a crowd, whatever, it's gonna stick it into an in-group or out-group.
(34:06) In-group means you're like me. (34:08) Out-group means you're not like me. (34:10) And so as you can imagine, that's a bias and not all biases are bad, right?
(34:17) But that is a bias that could certainly become bad if you just let that instinct just take over, right? (34:24) Now, because it's an instinct that was embedded in us from the caveman days and it served us well back then, right? (34:32) Now, because you can't change the instinct because it happens in nanoseconds, but what you can do is change the information that you feed the brain.
(34:40) The brain is just a predictive machine. (34:42) And so the more information you feed it, the different decisions it will make, right? (34:46) So it's a form of rewiring your brain.
(34:48) So if you feed it, and the reason, by the way, the reason why the brain will put something in an out-group is that it's just unfamiliar to it, right? (34:56) So the goal is to make the unfamiliar familiar and that's how you get the brain to put more people in your in-group over time than to automatically stick people in your out-group, right? (35:08) So you've got to feed it more information, expose yourself to more people who aren't like you and then allow the brain to realize like, oh, okay, well, that was pleasant.
(35:17) There's nothing bad about that. (35:18) Like, I'm good. (35:19) And so now the brain starts to see those same, you know, not the same face, but other faces that may normally it had stuck it in an out-group.
(35:28) Now it's less, it's more familiar, right? (35:30) It's less threatening. (35:31) And so it's like, oh, I'll just stick it in my in-group.
(35:33) So our goal as leaders is to increase our in-group. (35:36) And that's why when I make the comment, it should not be a mirror. (35:39) It should be like a room, it should be big, right?
(35:43) That's our goal is how do I expand my mind? (35:47) How do I challenge my brain? (35:48) How do I challenge myself to literally grow that?
(35:53) And you do it by making the unfamiliar familiar.
Julian Hayes II
(35:57) Now, private aviation, I'm just gonna assume it's not, wasn't that diverse at a time and point. (36:03) Maybe it probably is more now.
Stephanie Chung
(36:05) A little bit more, but we still got a lot of work to do.
Julian Hayes II
(36:07) So applying these principles to an industry like that, and there's a handful of other industries like that where it's very traditional and it's usually pretty dominated by some type of segment. (36:18) How do you start to bring this in there?
Stephanie Chung
(36:21) Yeah, yeah. (36:22) Well, one of the things, I always say the private aviation industry, it has loved me and I have loved it back. (36:28) It's been really a great ride.
(36:30) But I also say that our industry suffers from PMS. We are pale, male and stale, right? (36:36) And so we are an industry that is just like, oh my gosh, we are heavily male dominated. (36:44) And so yes, we are working really hard, the entire industry is working hard to change that because we wanna get more women into the industry and more people of color and so on and so forth.
(36:54) But that does take time. (36:55) Now, where I'm most passionate and where I do spend time, especially in some of the boards that I'm on, is once you get the, hiring diverse people, right? (37:05) People who are not like you is easy, it is easy, right?
(37:11) Making sure that you keep people who are not like you and that they feel like they belong and you set them up in a place that they can do their best work. (37:19) That's the hard part, right? (37:22) And so that's where you've got to put forth the energy and the effort.
(37:26) And so that's really when I think about the book, for an example, one of the things that I have is an acronym called ERD. (37:32) So a lot of times what happens is people just wanna say, if they think of the word ally in its traditional sense, so not in the acronym of how I've described it, but just in its traditional sense. (37:43) A lot of times what happens, Julian, is people want to call themselves an ally, right?
(37:47) And this happens, I speak to different countries or different companies, for people with different countries, yes. (37:52) But I speak through all different types of industries. (37:55) And so it's not uncommon that when I'm done speaking, someone will come up to me and we'll just use something simple.
(38:00) Let's say it's a guy and he'll say, Steph, I love this. (38:03) I am like, I am an ally to women. (38:06) I love it.
(38:07) I have been married to the same woman for X amount of years. (38:10) I'm a girl, dad, I've got four girls, like I'm all in, like, let's go, right? (38:15) And I always say, that's awesome.
(38:17) I love the fact that you're an ally to women. (38:19) We appreciate that. (38:20) Now, tell me, what have you done this week to show your allyship?
(38:25) And Julian, it's usually crickets. (38:28) They can't give me any specifics of what they've done to show their allyship. (38:34) And so you can't just self-anoint yourself as an ally, right?
(38:38) Like it doesn't make, that doesn't, that's not how this works, you know? (38:42) Because what happens is people think they're an ally, but if you cannot give me specifics of what you've done to show your allyship, then you're literally just thinking and you're not doing the work, right? (38:56) And that's why when I think of ally, yes, you're asking, yes, you're listening, yes, you're even learning, but if you don't act, it doesn't matter, right?
(39:05) So you have to take action. (39:07) That's the piece, awareness is one thing. (39:09) Execution is something different, right?
(39:11) And so when we think about the industry that I'm in, or any industry for that matter, when I say that you earn the right to become an ally, earn is an acronym. (39:22) So it stands for, the E stands for that you've established an environment where people feel seen, appreciated, and psychologically safe. (39:31) And psychologically safe simply means that they can raise their hand and speak their truth.
(39:35) And it may be something that they don't agree with you on, right? (39:38) They may say something like, you know what? (39:40) Listen, we call it courage without retaliation in my company, right?
(39:44) So that you can raise your hand and say, because psychologically safe, a lot of people use the word, but a lot of people don't know what the word means. (39:50) It really just means that they can say, hey, you know what? (39:52) I think this is a great idea, but I think we could do it better if we did this way, and here's why.
(39:57) Without the fear of being retaliated against, right? (40:00) That's all psychological safety means is they can say what they believe, and then not have a fear that it's gonna come back because maybe they disagreed with, you know, the direction the company was going or the way that the leader saw it. (40:11) So you've gotta E, earn the, you know, establish an environment where people feel seen, valued, and psychologically safe.
(40:18) The A stands for assure alignment. (40:20) The left hand has to know what the right hand's doing in the company. (40:24) And you'd be surprised how many people really don't know, like, what's the company do?
(40:27) Like, I know what I do, but what does the company actually do? (40:29) How do we make money? (40:30) Like, what's our value?
(40:31) What's our mission? (40:32) Most employees don't know that, which is really sad. (40:34) So you've gotta assure alignment.
(40:36) Then the R is you gotta value the truths. (40:38) So if you can get an environment (40:40) where people can, you know, see something and say something, (40:43) and then they literally can assure the alignment, (40:46) the left hand knows what the right hand's doing, (40:47) you've got an employee that knows why we're here, (40:49) what the company does, and how they contribute, (40:52) contributes to the overall of the company, (40:54) you do that, and then you rally them (40:56) behind a cause that's bigger than them, boom. (40:59) You have a team that's unstoppable. (41:00) I could stop right there.
(41:02) But the N, because I'm in aviation, stands for navigate the narrows. (41:07) You have to have now a plan, right? (41:09) Where are we going?
(41:10) When are we gonna get there? (41:11) How are we gonna get there? (41:12) What's the details?
(41:13) So that's what the N is for. (41:14) You've gotta navigate that whole thing. (41:16) I always say a pilot, I don't care what pilot it is, they don't get in a plane not knowing where they're going, right?
(41:22) They know where they're going, what route they're gonna take, how much fuel they're gonna need, like you have to navigate this whole thing. (41:28) And so that's what I mean by you have to earn the right to be called an ally, and an ERN is its own acronym within itself, so.
Julian Hayes II
(41:37) Yeah, and I think you answered one of the things that we talked about a little bit beforehand off camera, where sometimes just from an outside eye, and I'll be a little bit of a devil's advocate in case there's some out there, they're gonna say a lot of times companies are doing this more from a performative standpoint, right? (41:53) And we're just including people in the room just to hit a quota, just to hit a checkbox, right?
Stephanie Chung
(41:59) Yes.
Julian Hayes II
(42:00) And we're disregarding merit, right?
Stephanie Chung
(42:03) Yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(42:04) So some people will have that argument.
Stephanie Chung
(42:05) Yeah, yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(42:07) But what we just described there kind of eliminates that argument, correct?
Stephanie Chung
(42:11) Right, right, exactly. (42:13) Yeah, and because the reason why is when you have, if you have someone on the team, or any team, I was recently speaking to just a group, a room full of CEOs, and they were asking, how do we do this better type of thing? (42:27) And I said, first of all, don't overcomplicate it, (42:30) because I think part of what's gone wrong (42:32) with this whole thing is that we start to make it (42:36) a big grandiose situation, (42:38) and with everything else leaders have going on, (42:40) it's just now another thing they gotta do, (42:43) and because it becomes another thing, (42:45) it's not that they don't wanna do it, (42:46) but they're like, listen, I gotta figure out what tariffs, (42:48) and we've got global wars, and global supply chain issues, (42:50) and how to attract good talent, and keep good talent, (42:53) and how do I make sure my stocks, (42:55) my shareholders are happy, my investors are happy, (42:57) my employees are happy, I got a lot going on, right? (43:00) So I get that. (43:01) And then, so then if you add into this situation, and you gotta lead people who are not like you, and know how to meet everybody where they're at, they're kind of like, not that I don't wanna do it, it's just I have a lot going on.
(43:12) And so the reason why it's important to me that people not overcomplicate this, is because it's just, it's super duper simple. (43:21) If you and I went to a playground, Julie, and we watched a bunch of little kids, bunch of five-year-olds play right now, we would watch them be doing this all day, 10 ways till Sunday. (43:31) Because little kids ask, they listen, they learn, and then they take action.
(43:36) They have so many questions, and they're asking questions they don't know the answer to. (43:41) And that's really the key. (43:42) You don't wanna just be asking questions and be asking questions.
(43:45) Most leaders ask questions they already know the answer to. (43:48) I wanna challenge leaders to ask the question you don't know the answer to, right? (43:52) Because that makes you curious.
(43:54) If you don't know the answer, then you're gonna actually ask it, and you're gonna really listen. (43:58) And then when you listen, you're gonna learn. (44:00) And then when you listen and learn, you're like, okay, now I have, the ball's in my court now, right?
(44:05) We all do this if we're talking to somebody from, again, the world's global. (44:09) So if we go to another country to do business, well, we don't know the culture there. (44:14) The people may look exactly like us, and we still don't know the culture.
(44:18) So now we're asking questions that we don't know the answer to, and we're listening and we're learning. (44:23) And so my challenge for leaders is, you know how to do this, you're a leader. (44:27) Just do it all the time with the people you work with.
(44:30) Don't assume, right? (44:32) Because the minute you come in and you assume you know the answers to this question or how they think or what they're thinking, then it becomes performative, right? (44:40) It's not that complicated.
(44:42) One of the things I always like to share with leaders is, and I just recently did this, you know, I've got to practice what I preach, right? (44:47) So this is a part of my lifestyle. (44:50) But how do I put myself in a predicament where I don't know the people that are around me, and I don't know the culture of the environment that I am in, and no one's like me?
(45:02) And so my husband and I recently did this on a Sunday. (45:05) There is a Thai Buddhist monk type of area in Dallas. (45:11) I personally didn't know if it existed, but it's there.
(45:13) And on Sundays, what happens is all the different folks from the community will, you know, make food. (45:21) And then you can go and buy foods, which like, you know, think of like a Thai grandma making this delicious, authentic food. (45:29) You can go and buy the food.
(45:31) I know, and then the money goes towards helping their community and the monks and how they care for their, you know, monks don't, you don't usually see monks out there working, right? (45:39) They're like, they're serving the people. (45:42) And so the money that they make on Sundays from us going to buy food and, you know, a hot lunch or whatever, that money then goes to offset the needs of the community.
(45:52) Now that's something simple. (45:53) So, you know, I went there and I was like, okay, no one here thinks like me, looks like me, has my same background or whatever. (45:59) And I get to now go there, have some amazing food, hang out with the monks, right?
(46:05) And just kind of understand their world. (46:07) That is so interesting and fascinating. (46:09) Be in their botanical gardens, go explore their temple.
(46:13) I've never been to a monk temple, you know, what's the protocol, take my shoes off, you know, all this stuff. (46:17) What it does is it helps me. (46:18) I'm curious, right?
(46:19) So it helps me. (46:20) I'm in an environment where I don't know this environment. (46:23) So by default, I'm asking and I'm listening and I'm learning and it's expanding my mind.
(46:27) And so I'm taking action and all those things. (46:31) That's something simple. (46:32) My husband and I did it on a Sunday, right?
(46:34) This wasn't, I didn't need to change my political stance. (46:37) I didn't need to change how I saw the world, right? (46:39) It was just like, no, okay, this is super simple.
(46:42) That's why I want leaders to think of this is do not make this complicated. (46:46) You were born to do this. (46:49) It's life that kind of slaps it out of our thought process.
(46:52) And all of a sudden, you know, we overthink it. (46:54) But literally everybody across the globe has the same want and desire. (46:59) We all want the same basic needs.
(47:01) People are not that different. (47:02) So how you make this not performative is, this is what I told the CEOs. (47:07) This week, what I want you to do, only thing I want you to do is these are your company, your meetings, your employees, your everything.
(47:15) So this week, every meeting you're in, I just want you to observe it. (47:19) Who's in the meeting? (47:20) Who's not in the meeting?
(47:22) The people that are in the meeting, when they say something, how do people respond? (47:27) Does everybody respond equally when everybody says something? (47:30) Is everybody in the meetings have the same thought process, you know, have the same background, have the same everything?
(47:35) You have to slow your role long enough to observe because you're the leader. (47:42) You already, you know, a high achiever. (47:45) I don't need to give you a 10 point bullet plan on how to do it.
(47:49) If you want that, it's in the book, but I don't think you necessarily need all of that. (47:54) If you just slow down and observe your own environment, who's in there, who's not in there, who's speaking, who's not speaking, and when they speak, how do people respond? (48:04) And once you see that, you're gonna have that aha moment.
(48:08) I trust that you will. (48:10) And now you can decide what kind of action you're going to take. (48:14) You're the leader, right?
(48:16) And so it's not as complicated as we try to make it, but it first starts with the awareness, kind of slow down and just look and pay attention for a second. (48:25) And then from there, you'll come up with the strategy that will serve your company best, right? (48:30) Or your department best or your team best or whatever.
(48:32) I have confidence in leaders, but I think what happens is we're running around like our hair's on fire because there's so much happening that they're not doing the basics any longer. (48:42) Just stop and observe. (48:45) And once you do that and you see something, now you have the right and the ability to do something about it, right?
(48:52) So.
Julian Hayes II
(48:53) Yeah, one of my mentors recently told me, he's like, the hardest challenge for you now, Julian, is he's like, you're in a, it's an all-time distraction error, right?
Stephanie Chung
(49:01) Yes.
Julian Hayes II
(49:01) And he's like, you're just gonna have to focus. (49:03) Can you actually focus and actually just pause for a second?
Stephanie Chung
(49:07) That's right.
Julian Hayes II
(49:08) He's like, that's the difference between your error and my error, is that the distractions are at an all-time high.
Stephanie Chung
(49:13) Yes, yes, so powerful, so well said. (49:16) And you know what? (49:17) Your error, and it's interesting because, yes, you all, I say you all because I have a daughter around your age as well.
(49:23) So you were born to multitask, right? (49:25) Like, you guys got a million things going on and you can multitask very well, actually. (49:30) But what's interesting is even people that are older, like in my, we're still in the era.
(49:35) So though we may not have been brought up with computers, right, we're still trying to learn it and figure it out. (49:41) But you all, that's all you know. (49:43) And so, again, going back to all the different generations, each generation can help each generation in a good way, right?
(49:49) But you're right, we're all dealing with just so many distractions. (49:53) And so you have to be intentional about making sure that you kind of stop and figure out for yourself, there's no right or wrong answer here, but you have to figure out for yourself, how am I going to like put first things first? (50:05) Because I can't have a gazillion things going on and still be effective, right?
(50:08) Somewhere along the line, I'm gonna have to stop this train that's clearly slow. (50:12) It's like watching a train accident in slow motion, right? (50:16) We're all so incredibly busy.
(50:18) So how do you stop it long enough to make sure? (50:21) And when we think about people, going back to leading people who are not like you, that's the job that we leaders have to do. (50:28) It's no longer enough.
(50:30) People who are not like you are not going away. (50:32) So first, let's have that reality check. (50:34) And now what that means is, you've got to figure out how to lead them.
(50:38) And leading doesn't mean shooting off directions or do this and do that. (50:42) That's not leading, right? (50:44) But how are you going to get the best?
(50:46) Because the people are there. (50:47) How do you get them now to work as one orchestration of brilliance and excellence for your company or your department that will get the best result? (50:56) And how you're gonna do it is stop, take the cape off, right?
(50:59) You don't need to be the superhero in this process anymore. (51:02) So your job, like one of the things that I used to do a lot when I was leading teams, especially sales teams, is one of the easiest ways that leaders can do this is show their own vulnerability. (51:12) So if I've got a sales team, and let's say the quota is a billion dollars this year, then I'm gonna say to the team, okay guys, listen, just had a meeting with the board.
(51:21) This is, they're looking for a 20% increase this year. (51:24) Listen, I know the market's down. (51:25) I know there's a whole lot going on, but let's talk about it.
(51:28) And so I may throw a whiteboard up, have the whole team there and be like, okay, here's what's expected of us guys. (51:34) And I could really use your help on how we're gonna get there. (51:38) Now you let the team just rattle off all kinds of stuff because they have ideas.
(51:42) They're the ones closest to the situation. (51:44) And they're rattling ideas, and you have somebody put it on the whiteboard. (51:48) No idea is a bad idea.
(51:49) What leaders typically do in that scenario is one, they don't say, I could use your help on how to get there. (51:55) They don't show that vulnerability. (51:57) So that's problem number one.
(51:58) Problem number two is when people start throwing out ideas, the leaders will start to shut the ideas down. (52:04) Well, we're not gonna be able to do that because of blah, blah, blah. (52:05) And that's a good idea, but I'm not sure about that because blah, blah, blah.
(52:09) Don't shut it down. (52:10) There's no bad ideas. (52:11) If you've asked for help, then let them just shoot their shot, right?
(52:15) So you've read all the ideas down. (52:17) Some you already know are not gonna work, right? (52:20) But that's not the time to shut it down.
(52:22) So you get, let's say you get 50 ideas out there, right? (52:26) Then you can go, wow, guys, thank you so much. (52:28) These ideas are actually really, really good.
(52:31) Clearly, we're not gonna be able to do all of them this year. (52:34) So I'd love for you all, I'd love to hear your thoughts and what is the most, what are the top five things we can get done this year that will drive this kind of result? (52:44) And now you let them hash it out, right?
(52:46) Because people are gonna defend their idea and they have a good, healthy debate. (52:50) By the way, that's psychological safety, right? (52:52) They can shoot their shot.
(52:53) They can talk about why they think it's a good idea, not a good idea, stupid idea, whatever, right? (52:57) Let them talk about it. (52:58) Let them get to the five.
(53:00) Ah, man, you guys got to the five. (53:02) I loved the healthy debate. (53:04) Thank you so much.
(53:06) This is how this team is gonna win. (53:08) Now, out of these five, I love it. (53:11) Let's go back and put some dates and deliverables to these.
(53:13) But I feel good about the fact that we're gonna get this done. (53:16) How about y'all? (53:16) It's their ideas.
(53:18) Of course, they're gonna feel good about it. (53:19) It's their idea. (53:20) They've narrowed it down.
(53:22) Y'all have put some dates and deliverables. (53:23) And now it's just a matter of slicing it up into bite-sized pieces for each of them. (53:28) What's their number?
(53:29) What's their quota? (53:30) What their market share increase, et cetera. (53:32) That's how you do this thing called leadership.
(53:35) And you don't, and I say take off the cape because what a lot of leaders do is say, okay, we got to get a billion dollars in. (53:40) Now, let me figure out how we're gonna do this. (53:42) And then they go close themselves in behind closed doors and they come up with a plan.
(53:46) They come up with a strategy. (53:47) Then they force feed it down everybody's throat, right? (53:50) So then the people are like, all right, well, this wasn't really my plan.
(53:53) And so if they don't hit the number, they can go back and go, well, I think this is gonna work anyway because, but I had no say in it. (53:59) Leaders, let's not make this so complicated. (54:01) Your life is complicated enough.
(54:03) How you lead people is you actually let themselves lead themselves. (54:07) And you're there to give guidance, guard rails and so on and so forth. (54:12) That's leadership.
(54:13) And that's what's expected of leaders today.
Julian Hayes II
(54:16) That's a beautiful way to put that part right there. (54:18) And so I'm gonna quickly transition to just aspects of you, the individual. (54:24) I'm sure people have asked you a lot about the breast cancer and that thing.
(54:27) So I'm gonna do a little different direction with that. (54:29) I'm gonna say, when you dealt with that while leading JetSuite, going through that, did that change your perspective on what success is and the overall meaning of life?
Stephanie Chung
(54:39) Yeah, yeah. (54:40) So when I was going through breast cancer, I actually wasn't with JetSuite.
Julian Hayes II
(54:43) Oh, okay, I'm sorry.
Stephanie Chung
(54:44) That's okay. (54:46) And, but yes, to answer your question, cancer changes you and it changes those around you. (54:52) And it absolutely changes how you see the world.
(54:54) And it, I can say this now, now that I've been cancer-free for, gosh, let's see, since 20, I was diagnosed in 2008, cancer-free by 2013. (55:05) So however long that is. (55:08) But what I will tell you is this.
(55:11) I now can say there's good reason, there's good things that I, I always think everything happens for a reason. (55:17) So I can look back now and think of some good things that actually came out of it that I wouldn't have noticed or even saw had I not had been sidelined for however long it took me to go through the healing process. (55:30) And one of the things that came out of that is to, yes, look at life differently.
(55:35) So the way that I used to lead before was incredibly intense, right? (55:39) I always say, I'm a child of a soldier, you get the mission done, right? (55:42) Like that's the, no matter what happens, you complete the mission.
(55:47) That's how I was raised. (55:48) And so that's how my leadership was as well. (55:50) And if you can flow with that kind of rhythm, you and I get along great.
(55:55) If you were not flowing in that, then it was probably a very intense place for you to work because of my intensity of, you gotta get the mission completed, right? (56:05) You gotta get the number in. (56:06) I don't care what's going on around the world out there, we still gotta get this number in, right?
(56:09) And so now I'm a much healthier leader, not just physically, but mentally as well, where I can step back and realize, and this is one of the reasons for the book as well, everybody has a different gift and talent and bring something different to the table. (56:23) And so what I have to do as a leader is to figure out how do I get the best out of you based on what you bring to the table and how do I get the best out of you? (56:31) And so what I started to do was to build teams that didn't necessarily all mirror my style because that's a much easier team to lead, but I needed to now build out a team that was like a baseball team or a basketball team or a football team.
(56:46) Every position was needed and every position played its role and that's how the team won. (56:52) And that's really how I think of people that are not like me. (56:55) Your talent is, my talent may be one thing, but your talent is something that's gonna compliment my talent, right?
(57:01) And so even when I'm hiring and I'm asking those questions about, you know, your favorite dinner party and all that stuff, I'm hiring for the position of the team. (57:09) So let's just keep it simple. (57:11) Yes, it's a sales team, right?
(57:13) I'm not just hiring for who can hit the number and who's had a track record of hitting the number. (57:18) That's a part of it, but I'm also hiring for the, how does this team function? (57:24) So on the team, I'm gonna need somebody who plays offense, somebody who plays defense.
(57:28) So in sales, right, I need somebody who's incredibly detailed. (57:31) Most salespeople are high, like they're high level thinkers, right? (57:34) They're not into the weeds, you know, but I may need a couple people that are into the weeds because I can't have everybody think at high level, right?
(57:42) Somebody's gotta think about the detail, right? (57:44) And so now I'm building a team that has distinct differences. (57:49) The only thing they have in common is that they have a track record of getting the job done, right?
(57:54) That's what I need. (57:55) But the dynamics of the team, I need somebody who knows how to play defense. (57:59) I know somebody who needs to play midfield.
(58:01) I need somebody who's really good at, you know, being a forward, like that's what I'm building is a team that all the different dynamics will work so that we collectively as a team are a perfect team to get the perfect result. (58:14) That's not how I used to be prior to the cancer. (58:16) Prior to the cancer is just, I just want people who are like driven, high energy, let's go, competitive.
(58:23) Like I want that person. (58:25) And so you have a team of people who are constantly like running like this. (58:29) But the truth of the matter is I need teams of people who run like this.
(58:32) I need teams of people who actually function like this. (58:35) And I need also the teams of people who actually go like this, right? (58:39) So that's what's needed in the team because each season is gonna dictate certain things.
(58:46) And when people who run like this, when they get tired, they drop like this, right? (58:52) That's why I need the people who are, when they're dropping, that's okay. (58:55) The steady at ease are still there, right?
(58:57) And the steady at ease, if they have a dip, that's okay. (59:00) Cause the ones who have a dip, it's all working. (59:02) It's an orchestrated event, right?
(59:04) And so anyways, that's what cancer taught me is people who are just like me. (59:09) Yeah, it's easier for me by all means, but it's actually not necessarily better for the organization. (59:15) And I learned that through learning how to appreciate life and learning how to appreciate that everybody's got a different talent, different calling and a different way that they get to the same place.
Julian Hayes II
(59:26) Hey, you mentioned your family earlier, 37 years with your husband, I believe. (59:30) Congrats on that, 35 year old daughter. (59:32) And you have the picture up on your website as well.
(59:34) I'm curious, cause a lot of times, whether you're an entrepreneur or you're just a go-getter, a lot of times, sometimes personal life suffers for a lot of people, I've noticed. (59:47) How do you make it work?
Stephanie Chung
(59:49) Yes, yes. (59:50) Well, I didn't always have this down to a science, but thank God I learned early on from just somebody who was older and wiser as I was coming up through my career and so I'll give advice for people who have maybe small kids, especially if you travel a lot or you're in a season where you're just super busy. (1:00:07) So whenever I was away, my daughter's name is Brittany, whenever my husband and I early on made a decision, we're gonna have her active in sports and things of that nature.
(1:00:16) And we also made a decision early on that we will always be at every one of her events. (1:00:22) So there are times I may have been someplace else, I fly in to watch a soccer game, I'm there cheering, rooting, game's over, I'm back on a plane to get back to where I was. (1:00:31) You know what I mean?
(1:00:32) And so all that, but I can tell you, as active as we had her between soccer, dance and cheerleading, I only missed one event out of her entire childhood. (1:00:42) And that's because the plane canceled and I just couldn't get back. (1:00:45) Other than that, I made sure that I was always at every single event.
(1:00:48) And same with my husband, he was always there. (1:00:51) Now, that's the first thing. (1:00:52) Second thing, and so it's a commitment, you've gotta just figure it out, right?
(1:00:55) The second piece is whenever I was away, if I was traveling overnight, I would bring her a gift back for every night that I was gone. (1:01:05) Because, and I think every, especially mothers, we all know when you're trying to travel and the kids are little and they're like hanging on to your pants or you're dragging yourself out and they're crying, when are you coming back? (1:01:15) You know, and all that stuff.
(1:01:16) So it becomes a very traumatic type of situation every time you gotta take a business trip. (1:01:21) And so I was like, how do we fix this and change this? (1:01:23) It's traumatic for her, it's traumatic for me, you know, my husband's left up trying to clean this whole thing up when I walk out the door.
(1:01:29) So how do we fix it? (1:01:30) And someone taught me this and I tell this to leaders as well who have small children, go to the dollar store. (1:01:38) I mean, especially when they're little, they don't know the price of what things are.
(1:01:41) Go to the dollar store and just load up on a bunch of stuff, right? (1:01:44) And wrap them all up because it's really about the unwrapping that kids get excited about. (1:01:49) They don't really care what's in the middle.
(1:01:50) So go to the dollar store, wrap up these dollar gifts and so have them on hand. (1:01:56) Or when you're out and about just buy some at a gift store or whatever. (1:02:00) And so what I would do is whenever I was away, Brittany and I and my husband would put on a calendar, okay, mom's gonna be gone for these two nights.
(1:02:07) So I'm leaving this day and I'll be back on this day. (1:02:10) So she can see the calendar. (1:02:11) Every day she looks up, okay, mommy's coming back tomorrow, right?
(1:02:13) And then she knew when I came home, I would have a gift for every night that I was gone. (1:02:18) And together, we're gonna open that gift and then together, we're gonna play together with that gift. (1:02:24) So now I've shifted her focus.
(1:02:25) Her focus isn't about when I'm gone, her focus is how many gifts she's getting when I get back, right? (1:02:31) And she's gonna spend time with me playing anyway. (1:02:34) That is the most inexpensive, most rewarding.
(1:02:37) It's great for me because I can get home and play with her, because I've missed her for two days. (1:02:42) She's excited because she's like, I got two gifts, right? (1:02:45) And so everybody wins.
(1:02:47) That's an easy way to do it. (1:02:49) And all you're trying to do is pivot their focus. (1:02:52) And when you do that, she could care less how many, she'd be glad if I was gone for five nights, right?
(1:02:56) Because now she's getting five gifts when I get back versus, oh my God, she's gone for five nights. (1:03:02) So there's just a way to shift their focus. (1:03:04) That was something I did when she was little and it paid dividends.
(1:03:08) Now, as she got older, she could care less when I was coming back, right? (1:03:11) She has those teenage years, right? (1:03:12) She's probably hoping I never come back, but because now the rules and all that stuff is out there.
(1:03:18) But, and she's much more, she now gets the, she understands the quality of a gift. (1:03:23) And so I can't get away with the dollar store stuff anymore. (1:03:25) So, you start changing the strategy as they get a little bit older, but use that for any of your listeners.
(1:03:31) I guarantee you, it's gonna make getting out that door much, much easier. (1:03:35) Cause they're gonna be like, I'll see you in two days with my two gifts versus hanging on to your pants as you're dragging, trying to drag them out and they're crying and screaming and whatnot.
Julian Hayes II
(1:03:45) Absolutely. (1:03:45) And the last question here is, I think it'll be a fun one. (1:03:48) It's, so I believe in the book, you talked about living in Florida, all of a sudden you're touching down in Dallas, the heat is killing you, the heat is killing you, but you're in Dallas now.
(1:03:59) So I'm assuming that you are acclimated to the heat of summertime now. (1:04:04) And so what's your favorite thing about Dallas?
Stephanie Chung
(1:04:06) It's summertime always in Dallas. (1:04:10) This is a hot place. (1:04:12) Yeah.
(1:04:12) But for me, you're right. (1:04:13) I love hot weather. (1:04:14) So this works out for me.
(1:04:16) My favorite thing about Dallas is, and one of the reasons why I still live in Dallas, and to your right, to your point in the book, I talk about coming to Dallas, being forced to come to Dallas and I wasn't too happy about it. (1:04:26) But I love the fact, I travel a ton. (1:04:29) And so what's important to me is being able to get nonstop anywhere.
(1:04:32) And that's what Dallas allows me to do, especially coming from aviation, right? (1:04:36) So airports and aviation space is really important to me. (1:04:40) So Dallas has a great DFW airport.
(1:04:42) It's one of the busiest airports. (1:04:43) It's a great airport. (1:04:44) I get in and out of it.
(1:04:45) And it also has Dallas love. (1:04:47) And so there is nowhere on the planet, I shouldn't say nowhere, but I'd be hard pressed to find anywhere I can't get to nonstop leaving from Dallas. (1:04:55) So that's my biggest plus for Dallas.
(1:04:57) Plus Dallas, it's a lot of people that live in Dallas aren't from Dallas because there's 32 Fortune 500 companies based here in Dallas. (1:05:06) So you've got an influx of people coming in from all different types of industries and different backgrounds and stuff. (1:05:12) So it's a really cool city because everyone's from different places and it's a very educated city as well.
(1:05:19) So you're able to hang out, go to the wine bar or whatever and have really great conversation with people from all different types of backgrounds. (1:05:26) So that's one of the other things I love about Dallas. (1:05:30) And the fact that there's no taxes.
(1:05:32) So yeah, I love that, right? (1:05:33) There's no state tax.
Julian Hayes II
(1:05:35) It's a good, you know, Tennessee is that as well, just in case anybody's here for Tennessee, and they wanna put me on a board to promote Tennessee more. (1:05:42) So just to put that tidbit out there.
Stephanie Chung
(1:05:45) That's right, exactly.
Julian Hayes II
(1:05:47) But no, I've really enjoyed this conversation. (1:05:50) Where can listeners and viewers, when this comes out, keep up with you at?
Stephanie Chung
(1:05:53) Sure, sure. (1:05:54) So you can probably, the easiest way at stephaniechung.com will get you to anything that I'm doing. (1:05:59) If you're on any of the social media channels, I'm at, my tag sign is at the Stephanie Chung.
(1:06:05) And yeah, I would love to hook up with your listeners and followers. (1:06:09) And you can, it's a wild ride. (1:06:12) So let me be your ally in leadership.
(1:06:15) I'm thrilled about helping and supporting leaders however I can.
Julian Hayes II
(1:06:18) And I will say you can do a simple Google search and you will be lost for days. (1:06:21) As I was doing a little prepping for this. (1:06:23) It's tons of information out there.
(1:06:25) So you're not gonna miss it.
Stephanie Chung
(1:06:27) Thank you for that. (1:06:28) That's true. (1:06:30) This has been super fun.
(1:06:31) Thank you for having me, Juliet.
Julian Hayes II
(1:06:33) I appreciate that. (1:06:34) And listeners out there, stay awesome, be limitless. (1:06:35) And as always optimize today so you can lead tomorrow.
(1:06:38) Peace.
